to think it isn't a big deal if children in reception can't use a knife and fork

[Whoneedssleepanyway]

my friend gets a real bee in his bonnet about so called middle class neglect and parents "outsourcing" all their parenting to teachers, nannies, nursery etc.

this week his gripe was that children go to school without knowing how to use a knife and fork and his aunt who was a headmistress at a primary school said to him that without fail every year there were a number of children in reception who couldn't use anything other than a spoon to eat.

AIBU to think this really isn't a big deal, my DD1 is just 5 and is still getting to grips with a knife, I tend to still cut a lot of her food up for her, I do lay her a knife and fork at mealtimes but she tends to use the fork a bit like a spoon. I haven't particularly pushed the need to hold her knife and fork properly on the basis that she will get there eventually...she can use a knife to spread things like butter on bread, the fact she isn't using both her knife and fork competently yet really isn't something I lose sleep over.

velcro has changed laces.

I tried to find school shoes with laces - there were none.

DD can do laces - step by step learning made this possible.
knife and fork she is only just getting to grips with - though i didn't really make the effort until recently - not really important as she gets sandwiches for lunch?

i am trying hands-over-hands to show her which is working ok (except it is shovel food into DD2...help DD1..shovel food into DD2..help DD1.....). she did well today.

actually, finding children's clothes with no back fastenings (so she can do them herself) is also hard. it seems parental help is being designed-in.

i thought most took sandwiches anyway

YANBU

I know someone who was given a cup of tea when she was 11 and didn't know what the saucer was for because she had always drunk out of mugs.

Of course its not the end of the world but I agree with others that all children (SN excepted) should be able to at least try to use a knife and fork by the time they reach school.

My DS went to a very old fashioned nursery school where they all ate with a knife and fork from age 3 .

Some adults can't even use knives and forks properly though can they? It really puts me off my food (and that's hard) watching people eat badly .

agree to those that said about left handers,i have two out of three and even the eldest looks cack handed when eating

oh and the tying of laces,i dont think people who are right handed realise how difficult it is to teach the left handers

oh god - fork upside down and used as a scoop.

Or worse - knife into your gob.

I want to grab their knife and stick it in their eye

surely it is just part of the fine motor skill set that they learn,
if they have had practice with things like cutlery then the leap to a pen/pencil for writing isn't that great.

if they have never tried to control something like a spoon/fork/chopsticks then potentially the leap to writing is harder (that is pure speculation based on no actual knowledge at all!)

I think there's a massive difference between being able to use a fork and being able to use a knife.

DS1 is 4 and starts in September and is 100% fine with a fork and uses it every meal. But he still struggles with a knife, he can butter toast with it fine, and does try with cutting food, but inevitably the food just gets pushed around rather than being cut up.

I watched my 15 yo ds tie his laces recently. It was EXCRUCIATING to watch. He could do it but flippin' heck, was it a long-winded way. Who the hell taught him that???

Oh no! DD (I thought) can use a knife and fork pretty well, but I dont think she'd be able to cut up meat, for example, very well. She's four and three months.

She won't have packed lunches. She loves her dinners! Please tell me she'll be ok (starts after Easter)

And she's a lefty....

My daughter is the only left-hander in the family and she does everything ,except write, in a very right-handed way because I gave up trying to adapt and just showed her what I did.

Most people have no idea she is a left-y.

My ds is 4.8 and in reception. He can't cut up his food with a knife yet, although he does use a fork fine. He told me that the dinner ladies help him cut up his lunch, I was a bit worried and asked him if they just helped him but he assured me that they cut up lots of the chldren's dinners!

It's not ideal, but not the end of the world. Yanbu.

Hmm - well before we fall onto the "working mothers sending country to hell in a handcart" bandwagon I would mildly point out that my DD had no interest at all in cutlery until at nearly 2 she saw an older child at her CM's use a spoon and fork. Similarly she was turning her spoon over until the CM encouraged her to copy another child who had better spoon control. So "outsourcing", as you put it, has sped up the process in my case...

My youngest 2 3.6 and 1.7 both use forks and spoons really well. The 3 year old likes to pretend to use her knife because she sees us using a knife but she doesn't have any real control over it yet. She goes to school in 18months and by then she will be able to use it, she sees us use one everyday and that is a huge help in learning a new skill.

Like others said there is a huge difference in not knowing what a knife is to not knowing how to use one correctly. Don't worry about your friend, he sounds like he jumps on the latest bandwagon and generalises too much

DS2 (6) can just about cut things up using knife and fork, but he's a deft hand at chopsticks. Eats his peanuts using chopsticks.

Ds2 has picked up some ghastly awful table-manners from his nursery school. He has regressed in the last year. DS1 who is 21 years older went to a nursery where they used a knife and fork at 3, and sometimes even chopsticks. I'm not sure if it's the 21 years that is the difference or a geographical one Barnet/Edmonton. Either way, I'm fairly horrified.

maybe they cant use knife and forl because at home they dont use it. In some cultures eating with hands is preferred. and this includes using fingers to eat curry and rice and pasta etc. it doesnt mean they only eat finger foods....

I still don't get the left handed thing though.

I am left handed - and use my fork in left hand, knife in right - as normal.

I like eating with my hands. Esp scooping curry up in a chapati. Makes it taste nicer somehow.

Meal times require a table at which there are table mats, cutlery and conversation.

A knife and fork should always be set. DS picked up the skills fast and very competently used a knife and fork by the time he was three and a half. DD took a little longer, struggled a bit with fine motor skills generally. At 13 and 17 they both use a knife and fork perfectly and know that you offer guests the serving bowls first. At 44 and 46 the SILs still haven't mastered the skill but then neither has MIL. I set DH straight as soon as I met him .

children are getting babied for so much longer. 30 years ago you used a knife and fork in reception.

Exactly! Even much less than 30yrs ago. You do have to actually sit down and show them and get them to do it every day. It wasn't even a question when I started school-we all did it.
I am left handed and hold it the 'normal way'.It makes sense, I started with just a fork which went in my left so the knife then went in my right.

Why table mats?

I don't think it is that children are babied longer tbh. It's just exposure and changes in lifestyles in general.

Shoelaces - children's don't learn to tie them as they have velcro on their shoes. They have no reason to earn and don't get the practise. However, spend some time showing them how to do it and they will learn, I realised a couple of years ago that DD couldn't tie shoelaces and thought she ought to be able to - so we spent a few minutes every day til she got the hang of it.

Ties - children don't wear ties as much these days as they are not part of many uniforms. So they have no reason to learn and no practise. If they did wear them, they;d learn quickly. DD could tie a tie within a month of starting school as she had one as part of her uniform - so was tying a tie herself before being 4 and a half.

Knives and forks - most children are able to hold them and use them to some extent ime (work in an infant school). Knives are trickier obviously - esp as children's cutlery isn't sharp so makes it much harder than adults ones in many ways. Plus so much food now is finger food or uses other cutlery as well. In the past it was all meat and two veg so knife and fork was necessary, but eating noodles, curry, pasta and pizza means they are needed less. Likewise more people have packed lunches for school - so again less need for cutlery.

Most children ime will learn very quickly once doing something frequently.

re the left handed for eating. My DD is right handed for writing but does most other stuff left handed, including eating - she has her cutlery int he wrong hand. This makes cutting harder as knives generally have the blade on the side for right handers. But no amount of telling her changes that - she just learnt to manage regardless. Still looks odd though - but I even googled - apparently there is no right or wrong hand for holding cutlery, not even in the etiquette books!

Either using a knife and fork is really easy to teach, in which case what difference does it make if they are taught it at school by a dinner lady? It shouldn't be a massive chore. Or it is difficult to teach, and requires constant reinforcement, in which case it should be reinforced at both home and at school at meal times.

I have just asked my mum, who started teaching in the sixties, and she said there have always been some children who couldn't use a knife and fork properly in reception, either because of home background or because they hadn't developed the appropriate motor skills yet.