To think the long school holidays are not for the teachers' benefit?

[NotInMyDay]

Discussion on BBC Breakfast this morning re long school holidays. A rep from teachers' union was saying the long school holidays were vital for teachers to rest and recuperate so that they could do the best for our children at the start of the next school year.

AIBU to think that it's the children who need this break and therefore the teachers have it too? Rather than NEEDED by the teachers.

I think that most teachers do a fantastic and unenviable job but they don't need to recuperate any more than GPs, surgeons, nurses, bus drivers etc.

People who get 5 or 6 weeks of discretionary holidays moaning about other people who get 14 weeks with zero flexibility FFS.

Teachers don't get any say in when they take their holidays. And that matters.

If you want it reduced to 5 weeks a year, the presumably that will be on the same terms as everyone else - they can take holidays when it suits them and not only during school holidays.

Is it just the recession that makes people so resentful of every little perk other people have?

That encourages this kind of competitive whinging about who works hardest, who has it worst?

I don't want teachers (or anyone else for that matter) to have shit lives of constant toil.

It is in my interests as a citizen of this country that the people who educate our young are motivated, happy and have space and time within their lives to be creative and inventive in their work.

What kind of a country do you moany, resentful, envious fuckers want to live in?

First off, I am not a teacher. I do, however, work in a school and therefore have a little insight into how the pay works.

I am paid for the 39 weeks (including INSET days) that I am supposed to be in school, plus a holiday allowance of five weeks. The remainder of the holidays are unpaid. My employer pays me on twelve occasions spread evenly throughout the year. This is because it is easier for them to pay me the same amount every month than it would be for them to work out my exact salary entitlement for each month - there is only one month in the year that would always be the same, August when there would be no salary because we do not work during hose weeks. Every other month of the year would be paid differently because every other month of the year has at least a couple of days which fall into a school holiday period. Can you imagine the chaos this would cause for the LEA salaries section? Paying the same amount each month makes it easier for all involved. But just because I get paid every month, does not mean I am paid for every month. Indeed, my own contract is very specific that my pay is purely for 39 + 5 weeks and that the rest are in fact unpaid.

This is clearly the case for teachers as well, since if they ever have to take a days unpaid leave, they lose 1/195th of their salary, as opposed to 1/261 of salary which is what they would lose if they were paid for the entire 13 week holiday.

I also find it astoundeing that teachers often seen to think the rest of us can take leave whenever we like....er no. We can take leave when it suits our employers.

There is a bit more flexibility, but a HELL of a lot less leave. I for one would accept 13 weeks fixed leave a year in a heartbeat.

Amelia It might be implied that the pay is low because of the holidays but teachers still get 12 pay slips a year

Im not a teacher and even I know that the yearly salary is divided up into 12 - i.e. 12 slightly smaller payments rather than 11 slightly larger ones so that there is not a month teachers recieve no pay.

Also parents don't have a lot of flexibility generally, when it comes to leave - a lot have to take it when their kids (if school age) are on holiday, to either go away themselves or cover child care.

Amelia, I thought you'd been a teacher and 'got the t-shirt'? But you had no idea how your salary worked?

India Knight wrote an interesting article in the Times about this subject yesterday.

Seems the term structure echoes what was done at the big public schools hundereds of years ago when they'd go off to visit their summer residences in the long break - so not really relevant today.

But the most interesting point she made was about the effects on very poor/neglected children who may not get decent food as they don't get a school lunch and also forget so much they've been taught over the long summer holiday.

Personally my dc's get nearly 2 months off over the summer and although I like it in some ways - it really is too long. I'd have thought a month was enough really with then the extra time spread out over the rest of the year.

And of course good teachers work hard but many other professions do and the Dr's etc I know don't forget all about work when they leave the hospital/surgery whatever. In most demanding jobs - it occupies a lot of your thoughts when you're not actually in the office.

And yes the union rep was an idiot.

So 'poor' children are likely to forget what they've learned?

As opposed to Tarquin and Camilla who couldn't possibly forget anything in their much longer summer hols, could they?

"There is a bit more flexibility, but a HELL of a lot less leave. I for one would accept 13 weeks fixed leave a year in a heartbeat."

Well become a teacher then.

And there is a lot more flexibility.

Teachers have no flexibility. At all.

Well I've phrased that poorly.

What she was saying was that children who are neglected won't have the same type of parental involvement during the holidays - you know access to books etc. I am talking about neglected children here not just children from caring families who don't have much money.

Also mentioned was the riots in last august - where there were school age children involved.

And I do think all children can forget stuff easily over such a long break - pretty sure I did and my own children certainly do.

Many working people take work home in the evenings and at weekends etc, not just teachers.
I have to take time off from work at opposite times to my DH to spread our leave separately to try and cover a portion of the lengthy school holidays between us. Family time when we can all spend time off together is rare! Those 6 weeks are certainly not relaxed and stress free for us. It largely consists of us shunting the DC between us and trying desperately to fob them off to GP in another county so we can hold down our jobs.

Children who are neglected never have the same kind of parental involvement, that's kind of the point.

And school is not going to compensate for that.

Why should all children miss out on having a long break away from their desks to do other stuff because some children are neglected by their parents?

All over the world people take longer breaks during the warmest weather. It's not just an anachronism that applies only to the aristocracy.

We should make the breaks better for the educationally disadvantaged, nit just put all children at their desks year around to stop them inconveniencing the wealthy by rioting.

Good post, Athinginyourlife.

Well yes Athing - the answer or at least one solution is to provide more help/support for neglected children - perhaps via holiday clubs.

But still I'd feel the whole of August off would be enough and would rather have the holidays more spaced out but that's just my personal preference really.

I think teachers need to point out how difficult and stressful their job is because they are constantly told that their job is EASY, they only work 9-3 and have 13 weeks holiday a year.

I don't think most of them claim that it's any harder than other VERY stressful jobs in the private and public sector. But on the whole, it is a regarded by the ignorant as a low-status job and is also demeaned by the Government as being little more than glorified childcare. So I guess this is why they feel they need to stick up for their profession.

I also realised recently that teachers don't get bank holidays as extra as these always fall during school holidays, so effectively only get 12 weeks holiday.

They also don't 'get' INSET days as these are days teachers are in school when the students aren't. So they are not days to be added onto holidays.

athing wind your neck in a bit ffs.

I am not objecting to the amount of holidays teachers have, just the misconception some teachers have that the rest of us have free reign to take off time whenever we want - in my previous job we were forbidden from taking leave in July, august or September along with the other peak periods.

In fact we would be told you have x number of leave days left and you'll be taking them on these days when we are quieter.

feenie Amelia, we are not paid for 13 weeks holiday. The salary is divided by 12 for convenience.

so how do you know this?

I began teaching in the 1970s so maybe things have changed. no one ever told me that my holidays were not piad, so how do you know- or is it just an assumption t, hat reflects the low=ish salary?

Should have said

I also realised recently that teachers don't get bank holidays as extra as these always fall during school holidays, so effectively get 12 weeks holiday plus the same 5 bank holidays that most other people get too.

How do I know what hours I am paid for? I found out! Assumption, my eye.

TBH I would rather have some unpaid leave over the school holidays than pay a small fortune for childcare/clubs etc. I have no family within 300 miles and summer holiday childcare used to take practically all my salary for the weeks I used it. I am allowed a maximum of 2 weeks leave in July and August because that is the only way we can cover the service. (We have to cover each other's workload in the NHS). I had 13 years of paying 3 lots of childcare for 5 - 6 weeks in the summer. I expect most people are in the same position.

as i said feenie- it was the 1970s when I worked full time- maybe the contracts were different. were you teaching then?

You taught in the 70's, Amelia? How long for and when did you leave?

Being in school in summertime is shit.

Our winters are long and dark - why spend long, bright days stuck indoors at school?

It makes no sense.

In summer children should be outside running about doing stuff with their friends.

Not sitting at desks trying to convince their teachers to take them outdoors and feeling stifled and bored and like learning is boring and onerous.

What is the obsession in this country with constant, relentless, pointless change to education?

It's not working out too well, is it?

Why not make some changes that would actually make education better - like scrapping league tables, SAT tests, the obsession with literacy and numeracy to the exclusion of all else, measuring, measuring but never measuring the unmeasurable things that actually matter?

Changing the timing of holidays is going to make life more shit for children and educational standards will still be buggered up by constant political interference.

TBH I think many teachers are completely negative about their work and it is one reason why I didn't go back into full time teaching, and now have a different career.

The staff room talk revolved around "Oh god how long until half term/ or end of term.

teachers get used to working in 6 week " blocks" and seem unable to pace themselves for longer periods of work without a break.

My DH goes for months and months without leave and still has not taken all his 5 weeks from last year- simply due to too many meetings and often being unable to book time off due to other colleagues being on leave.

I think the holidays are far too long and too frequent. 6 weeks over the summer is madness and half terms are not really necessary.

Teachers complain that they cannot get through the curriculum these days before exams loom- but if holidays were slashed it would not be an issue.