To think the long school holidays are not for the teachers' benefit?

[NotInMyDay]

Discussion on BBC Breakfast this morning re long school holidays. A rep from teachers' union was saying the long school holidays were vital for teachers to rest and recuperate so that they could do the best for our children at the start of the next school year.

AIBU to think that it's the children who need this break and therefore the teachers have it too? Rather than NEEDED by the teachers.

I think that most teachers do a fantastic and unenviable job but they don't need to recuperate any more than GPs, surgeons, nurses, bus drivers etc.

Cherries, why on earth is 2 weeks off at Easter not sensible?

Kids go to school 190 days a year. I don't suppose they are looking to increase that, in which case the holiday amount would stay the same, just be more spread out.

I didn't expect an exact amount, Amelia, but I expect it's rather more than a classroom teacher?

I am sorry to say this as a former teacher, but many teachers IME are just not up to the job- ie working hard.

They complain about the workload yet compared to other jobs they are not working that hard.

I do beleive they are underpaid, but I also think that teaching- especially primary schools- attracts people who would not cope in other more demadning professions.

Sorry! Wasn't thinking very clearly. I teach little ones so didn't know about the GCSE course work thing.

Teachers get about 14 weeks total holiday, about 6 weeks in the summer (but often my kids have had slightly less than 6 weeks), 2 weeks at Christmas, 2 weeks at Easter/spring, a week for each of 3 half terms, and then 5 Inset days.

What? So INSET days are a holiday, now? Teachers get 13 weeks holiday - we are paid for INSET days, because we work for them - there is a difference.

noble- why is pay an issue? we are discussing workload and holidays. is pay supposed to compensate for hours worked?

Yes of course pay is supposed to compensate for hours worked, Amelia! If your DH is working really hard but earning double or triple what a classroom teacher earns, then it's not really a fair comparison is it?

so why are people comparing hours worked by drs (GPs) for example who earn around £120K?

Your argument is not logical. IF ( and he doesn't) earn twice that of a teacher ( and are talking main scale to point 6, or advanced, or heads etc etc???) then he might be entitled to 2 x the pay- but should still get the same holidays! otherwise he'd be getting double the money but still 5 weeks holiday per annum.

I think I would like the holidays to stay the same, for my childrens sake.

I do think though that if the teachers are so hard pushed to complete everything why don't they change the teachers holidays and they could just have the normal 25 days plus a couple of weeks and then have all all teacher training days etc and some of the planning done while my children are on the beach.

I would also like to ask about planning....

if you teach the same subject [or same year in primary] surely you teach near enough the same thing every year so how much planning is needed I would of thought just some slight tweaking every now and again.

eg...... if you were teaching ''the American war of independence'' the facts will stay the same year in year out...... just slight adjustments needed for the different level pupils.

Please enlighten me.

I think that your point about money is a red herring.

the argument here was are teachers entitled to more hols because they are working harder than other people.

My point is that they are not working any harder than lots of other people.

Pay is another issue and depends on how you evaluate the worth and qualifications of what someone does/has , not just the hours they put in.

I think the point is, Amelia, that teachers are paid for the weeks they are actually working in school, plus inset days, plus 4 weeks holiday. The other (8?) weeks are unpaid. So if teachers were contracted to work more weeks their wages would have to go up.

Your husband, presumably, is contracted to work more weeks and is remunerated accordingly.

The extra work teachers do in the holidays is effectively unpaid.

And I don't think anyone has said that teachers work harder than ANYONE else. I'm sure there are a lot of careers that involve as much, or more, work and hours than teaching.

I also suspect that the majority of them receive higher pay as a reward. Whereas teachers get more holidays.

Oakmaiden: it is wrong to say that teachers are in any way unusual in doing hours beyond their headline ones, or in having no overtime paid even when extra hours are worked. This is why the Union reps comment this morning was so unfortunate.

I do think though that if the teachers are so hard pushed to complete everything why don't they change the teachers holidays and they could just have the normal 25 days plus a couple of weeks and then have all all teacher training days etc and some of the planning done

Never gonna happen - we would then have to be paid more for those shortened holidays.

I would rather spend time with my ds and be some kind of decent mother in the holidays that take the money, actually.

Iamme43, if primary is anything like secondary, things change all the sodding time, so you very rarely teach the same thing twice.

Either the government changes things, or the exam board, or the SMT decide they want an overhaul, or you have a different set.

For example, whilst I've been off on mat leave this year things ahev changed again.

I am going back to a whole new assessment system (SMT).
I am teaching completely different plays/books (Exam board)
I am teaching a syllabus to yr 11 that I haven't taught before (thanks to mat leave and the government).
I will teaching completely different things to year 10, beacause I had a bottom set before.
I will be teaching AS level Language, which is completely new, as I am primarily a Lit teacher,

Amelia, I haven't seen any teacher argue that they work harder than everyone else and that teachers have the most stressful job so I think you're arguing against a straw man there.

However if you want to argue that your DH works harder than a teacher and without the holidays then you also have to acknowledge that he is paid more than teachers! And I deliberately said classroom teachers. Teachers get paid less because of the holidays so pay definitely comes into it.

Edith - I didn't say it was unusual. I just said that the long holidays are unpaid anyway, so I can't see why everyone gets all up in arms about teachers "not deserving" them.

Since when has it been actually stated that teachers' holidays are unpaid?

It might be implied that the pay is low because of the holidays but teachers still get 12 pay slips a year.

zombie comparing teachers to counselors is not quite right. They are listening to one person, in a quiet room, where everyone involved is focused and wants to be there. Someone else outlined what a classroom is like and its not like that! Whilst doing all the things the other poster said, you might be interrupted by a kid coming in to get something from their locker etc plus bearing in mind any learning difficulties and personal issues a kid might have (I teach ethical issues so doing a topic like suicide or euthanasia when you have a kid in front of you whose parent just died of cancer is tricky- not only watching how you phrase things and his responses but trying to steer the discussion so no-one else says anything unfortunate). That's just one example. I do believe of course that other jobs are stressful and difficult in similar ways, but few of them combine all the different types of stress that teaching does. And, as also mentioned, we DON"T get paid for 13 weeks holiday a year, despite the fact we often work in them.

Lots of people have to do loads of work at home at the end of the day, over the weekends, during the holidays. Teachers really don't have the monopoly on that.

I work in the NHS and get 6 weeks leave a year. I bring work home every evening, have to attend meetings and training sessions on my days off, prepare talks, teaching sessions, training material, protocols and procedures, the list is endless.

Anybody who has any kind of responsible job will be in exactly the same position. I am not knocking teachers, but honestly, anyone in a profession is in the same boat.

DD has been given no fewer that 4 projects to do over the Easter Break, each will take about 6 hours to do. I wish she could just be allowed to have a rest - read, have family time, chill out with her friends. This drives me mad because we can't relax.

People who work for 39 weeks of the year (officially) can't complain that they earn less than someone who works 48 weeks of the year.

There are people who work just as hard and earn less. There are people with qualifications and experience level to that of a teacher, who don't earn as much. it's not the best paid job in the world, but it's not the worst by a long shot.

Wrt to planning time, lots of teachers like to do new texts with classes each year, in order to keep things fresh and interesting and work is tailored to meet the needs of the particular class you are teaching. A school might change exam board, so a course could be entirely different from the previous year. Of course, there are some things that you can use again, so the answer to how much planning is required, really does vary.

Amelia, we are not paid for 13 weeks holiday. The salary is divided by 12 for convenience.

Getting paid in the holidays is not the same as being paid for them, which is why we would be paid more if the holidays were shortened.

But Karma - that is the point. Teachers get paid less because of the holidays - if you take the holidays away you would need to pay them more.

It is actually worked out pro-rata - you are paid x amount for y weeks - add it all together, divide by 12 and that is the monthly salary.

Yes, I know that. I was just saying (in a clumsy way) that of course they earn less than someone who works 48 weeks, because they are not working 48 weeks themselves.

It's not a bad salary for a 39 week job.