To think the long school holidays are not for the teachers' benefit?

[NotInMyDay]

Discussion on BBC Breakfast this morning re long school holidays. A rep from teachers' union was saying the long school holidays were vital for teachers to rest and recuperate so that they could do the best for our children at the start of the next school year.

AIBU to think that it's the children who need this break and therefore the teachers have it too? Rather than NEEDED by the teachers.

I think that most teachers do a fantastic and unenviable job but they don't need to recuperate any more than GPs, surgeons, nurses, bus drivers etc.

The reason it came up is because the representative of a teaching union went on to national telly and spoke about how uniquely hard-working teachers are.

It's not surprising that such a comment is both debunked and (rightly) derided. The rep clearly misspoke, and probably regrets the performance now.

I doubt anyone would try to say teachers are not hard-working. But to claim they are uniquely so is clearly ridiculous.

I know Edith - but surely common sense would suggest that some teachers are going to be busting themselves & othes won't be. Every single profession in the country has some of its workforce doing an exceptional job - right down to those at the other end of the spectrum just cruising.

Given that there will never be unanimous agreement that teachers are the most uniquely hard working profession in the 21st century, I was just hoping we could move the discussion on!

I don't think they would lengthen the number of weeks we work - 39 - as this would mean they would have to pay us more. It has already been rightly pointed out that our salary is worked out without holidays.

So, it is a matter of reorganising what we already do. Many academies are already trying this; going back in August, for example, then having 2 weeks at October. It is only a matter of time until everyone follows suit. I wouldn't like 8 week half terms because when we've done them in the past, my department is on its knees (we teach a core subject with lots of additional extra-curricular revision and marking). 7 max. Essentially 4 x 7 weeks, then 2 x 6 weeks would be 40 weeks, which is about the same. Spread the holidays. I would love a longer break at May/June as the weather is always nicer then!

I agree that just because someone works hard it does not necessarily mean that they are a great teacher . In the summer term my workload goes right down and I have very little to do in the evenings , I don't want to create work and therefore I enjoy the time with my family. That does not mean that in the winter term I am great and in the summer I am shit, it just means I have varying workloads.

It does depend in your role in the school, if you have a management position it can push your usual marking and planning to the evenings and weekends. If you teach a literacy based subject you have more to mark

I can also be seen running things for children in our area in the evening, playing badminton one evening, choir one night, book club another, walking the dog or working the allotment most evenings for an hour or so. I then get home and work , it may be that others are doing the same. Despite what some would have you believe I do not spend my time at these activities telling everyone how much work I have to do when I get home.

Please also remember that lots of teachers work in very volatile environments. If they teach a 21 hour timetable, most of them will be spent dealing with aggressive behaviour/students being disruptive/crowd-controlling. This is the 'hard' aspect of the job. When teachers say they work hard, it is because they are the sole focus for 30 young people for up to 6 hours a day. It is hard going and can be exhausting. They then continue beyond classroom hours with the planning and marking, admin, etc.

Teachers do not say we work hard to be in competition: I think it is trying to get others to understand that it is a very, very draining profession at times, especially when working in a challenging school.

I have been told to fuck off and get a life; had things thrown at me; had a gang in my face screaming at me because I'd told them they couldn't do something; I have broken up many physical fights by getting in the middle. I am thankful these are rare occasions because I have worked in 'nice' schools. Each time you encounter these situations your body responds: it is stressful.

Teachers need breaks. As do students.

If they cut the number of holidays, the numbers leaving the profession would rocket. I can promise you that.

How can the union rep on the TV be "rightly debunked" for saying teachers are uniquely hard-working? Of course they are. Only teachers work like teachers, social workers like social workers, nurses like nurses etc, etc. Teachers have different demands on their time, and this needs to be taken into consideration.
He was representing the teachers' case, those whom he is paid to represent.

All the moany fuckers should get onto their unions for a better deal.

I don't think the amount of holiday should necessarily be cut - I think it should be re-thought. How would it work best for the children? What is the optimum amount of time for them to have a break, without the massive re-adjustment that seems to be needed in the Autumn to get back into the routine.
Some of the evidence for the kids from deprived backgrounds seemed very compelling. It seems they are further disadvantaged by the long breaks. If we can help that whole sector of society, surely that has to be a good thing?

An excellent point Crunchyfrog. If the holidays are slashed can the government find the money for the extra weeks worked bearing in mind that holidays are not paid-something that many people don't understand when they are 'teacher bashing'. My rate as a supply teacher was much higher because I didn't get holidays-the downside being that I had no chance of earnings in August.

Hmmm.. different holidays for the deprived. How would that work?

I quite like the idea that schools work all the time and teachers and pupils can choose their holiday. Primary schools could get away from one teacher per class and they could team teach.

Teachers as social workers again? If deprived kids aren't being fed properly over the summer shouldn't social services be looking into it? Free play schemes etc?

Rejigging the holidays is not as straightforward as some are making out either. I understand that the Nottingham schools with the new weird term times is actually going to be on holiday when exams are on, so they'll have to open the school and teachers no doubt will be required to go in for support and last minute revision during the holidays. Exam boards allow for the last week in May to be exam-free to account for half term (first week in June this year for Jubilee). If you mess with Christmas you affect revision for January A-level modules. A big long holiday after the exams is fine. Put the holidays before the exams and there'll be trouble fitting the work in.

Also, whoever thinks 8 week terms are fine? Dear god no. Way too long.

10-week terms are standard in my bit of Australia. They are fine. You get used to it.

Out of interest, do you have ofsted and league tables and levels and externally generated targets in Australia?

But how do the little ones cope, echt? Our 5 year olds are shattered after 6 weeks.

I wouldn't mind pretty much any reorganisation of terms, as long as everywhere adopted it together.

The prospect of your primary children (still in village school) having one set of holidays but your secondary one (who goes into eg Nottingham) having a different one with little overlap would be an admin nightmare; and I bet the sharks in holiday companies will ramp prices even further for the few overlapping weeks.

No, and I'd thought of including it in my last post.

No inspectors in Victoria, the unions saw them off years ago. No targets.No observations. There is a national test -NAPLAN- but not, as yet reliably linked to league tables, though these exist in a nascent form.

The real issue in Australia is government funding of private and Catholic schools at levels way above those of the state sector, which languishes in buildings that would make you weep - but that's a whole 'nother thread.

I also struggle with 8 week terms, maybe we need to work in a less intense manner. Pace up ourselves better.

I think the way they cope is there are are endless sports/swimming/singing days which eat into the time (sounding like narky exam teacher here).

Everything stops for sports. It's unbelievable. Lots of pastoral interventions; anti-bullying seminars, inspirational speakers. LOADS of subject-based trips out. Every year group goes on camp every year.

I forgot to say; there are no external exams in Victoria until the end of year 12 (13). Are the students any less literate for having not been examined endlessly as they are in the UK?

No. They're fine.

The Victorian system has its faults, but I'm happier here, and a better, if tireder, teacher.

Tireder?

You are not selling this, echt.

What about the little ones - see earlier ignored question.

If I hadn't had long summer holidays when I was at primary school, I would be dead. Seriously, I would have killed myself.

I was the scapegoat for my primary teacher, who came up the school with my year from year 1 to year 6, so I was not free of her until I went into secondary school. Nothing I did was right, even when it was she found something wrong with it. She hit me, shamed me and targetted anyone who tried to befriend me, so in the end no one did. I was completely isolated and when someone did something wrong if she couldn't find the real culprit then I was blamed and punished. Her particular tool was humiliation, Oh how she loved to humiliate me. I grew up knowing I was worth nothing, and it took me a long time to discover that that wasn't true.

I tried to kill myself twice before I was 11; both times aborted (stuck my fingers down my throat immediately I'd finished swallowing the pills) because of my fear of how God would punish me once I was dead - even worse than Miss P, I supposed, and forever. (Catholic school and family.)

The only time I felt human was in the middle bit of the summer holidays. The first two weeks were spent getting the armour off, but the cloud would descend again as the return to school grew closer, so that the last week was spent putting on my figurative armour again. That meant that I was happy for about 3 weeks in a year - no other holidays were long enough to take my armour off in.

I don't care how inconvenient long holidays are for anyone. The summer holidays are already too short.

Blimey, Jux, that's horrific. I'm so sorry you went through all that, and I hope you don't still suffer now.

I had a similar primary school teacher whose favourite tactic was humilation - I wasn't the target very often, but there were certain children whose lives she made an utter misery. Found out recently she's received an OBE for services to music (she is very active in running a choir). The local newspaper article talked also about her long services in education. Nasty old bitch - karma is clearly taking its time there

I really wouldn't want some of the summer holiday moved so we had a two week holiday in October/February though. The weather is cold and wet then! I love spending the summer holiday with my children!

"What is the optimum amount of time for them to have a break, without the massive re-adjustment that seems to be needed in the Autumn to get back into the routine."

But getting out of the routine is the point, surely?

Who wants a childhood entirely made up of routine, with no space to break out of it and do other things?

I don't want my children's lives regulated entirely on the basis of what will best suit their formal education.

There is (and must be) more to being a child than going to school.

Mine get out of the routine on a Saturday & Sunday, when they wake up, potter about, watch a bit of TV or play a game & are not at school!!!!!

Being a child is all about learning how to be a grown up. Before school was invented, children worked - as they still do in alot of less wealthy countries now. Education is highly desired in poor countries, where children will walk for hours & hours to get to school. We take so much for granted here in the wealthy west.

I'm not sure there is alot more to being a child than learning as much as you possibly can to equip you well for being an adult. It is possible that the current education system is not the complete answer to this process & could do with a re-vamp - but I certainly don't think altering the terms, will prevent children getting out of the routine of school every 5 days!!!