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AIBU?

Share your dilemmas and get honest opinions from other Mumsnetters.

to think dd's teacher was maybe over-reacting a tad?

622 replies

Northernlurker · 28/03/2012 18:15

Apparently dd has been 'very rude' today as per the message from teacher via after school club. Very rude consists of not listening to story but talking to friends and then saying 'no' when told to stop and 'no' when told to move. Now I agree this is very rude and the teacher obviously dealt with it at length because dd was in floods of tears when collected by after school club. I have spoken to dd and she was talking because the book was one we have at home and she was telling her friends as much. At the end of a hot day, at the end of term her attention is shot to pieces as is that of most of the other kids. AIBU to think that a message home about this infraction was overkill. She didn't get a warning, she didn't get a timeout - and really what am i supposed to do about this? i speak to dd about her day every day. i am clear about what is expected but seeing as she's a stubborn 4 who has been at school less than a term i don't expect miracles. Frankly impressed we've got this far.

Or should I be grovelling tomorrow?

OP posts:
Sunscorch · 04/04/2012 18:40

Is there any literature on Educational Psychology you could recommend, mathanxiety?

exoticfruits · 04/04/2012 19:10

I find myself unable to sit on my hands.
Everyone is anonymous on here and you have utterly no idea who you are talking to. Mathanxiety is making vast assumptions about people's ignorance on child development and child psychology-which I dare say would be quite laughable if she actually saw them in their jobs.

mathanxiety · 04/04/2012 19:12

WRT keeping the secret and not blurting out the ending:
Teacher would start the reading session with the announcement that it was time for the children to come to the circle for reading. There would be teacher-led discussion of the book as I described. Then there would be a reminder that the story was about to start and a reminder about letting others hear the story. The children would be invited to tell the teacher how they were to behave as the story was being read.

Sometimes the teachers would stop and ask for comments from the children. The points would correspond to beginning, middle, end. The children were asked to recap what had happened and anticipate what might happen next. Even those who had indicated that they knew the story could contribute, and the teacher would ask 'Do you think Sam is right?' if Sam had revealed the plot. Some children would disagree, some would agree. At four years old, children believe in the tooth fairy and just because one child who knew the book told the ending didn't necessarily mean they would believe it or lose interest. The teacher would say 'Let's read on and find out if Sam is right' and draw their interest back in.

Holding hands, and hands in general:
One huge rule of the classrooms I have experience of was that children were to keep their hands to themselves. Proper use of hands was explained and modelled in sessions at the start of the year that were devoted to what keeping your hands to yourself looked like, and instructive scenarios were acted out. There were little songs and rhymes that were sung by the teacher about hands (and other aspects of classroom behaviour). This happened before any attention was given to work that could be considered remotely academic. One of the uses of hands was to raise them when you wanted to speak. This instruction and songs/rhymes were repeated every day initially and then every so often as time went on. Often a teacher would use a rhyme or song to call attention to inappropriate use of hands instead of a spoken reminder about what proper use of hands looked like.

Children who were fidgety, inclined to pick at their clothes and laces, undo their hair, pick noses, poke others, pull stray tufts from the circle carpet were given a lump of blutack to fiddle with during story time.

Holding hands at the behest of the teacher worked for the most part once the proper use of hands foundation was laid (and there were frequent reminders) and there wasn't pushing. When each page was turned the children who were keeping the secret and holding hands together were allowed to squeeze the hand they were holding. If hands were held properly each hand holder got some praise from the teacher at the end of the story.

Generally, the hand holding was used just for the purposes of reminding the persistent talkers not to talk out of turn, and not specifically to keep the plot from being ruined -- the teachers were able to get around this aspect of the problem of talking after all. It worked a bit like tying string around the finger.

The teachers had a selection of 'hands' to raise wordlessly when children started blurting things out without raising their hands and waiting to be called on. They ranged from a decorated rubber glove with cardboard inside to retain its shape to a big sports foam hand to a colourful mitten with a button face, all mounted on dowel rods. This sort of tactic (along with songs, rhymes and mime) reduced the likelihood of the children tuning out the teacher's speaking voice. It also kept the voice for the class activity, and made the children stop and think a bit about what the instruction might be.

The overly chatty offenders gradually found that co-operative behaviour was rewarded. Catching children being good was one of the basic means of behaviour modification along with modelling and reminder time built into the week, and by means of songs and rhymes, etc. A good story time was concluded with praise and expressions of gratitude from the teacher for co-operation, contribution and effort. Children were also encouraged to thank their neighbours on either side for being co-operative during story time.

mathanxiety · 04/04/2012 19:18

'Can't be all that ignorant and unrealistic if all the other children were managing to live up to the wildly unreasonable expectation that they sit still and be quiet for a little while at the end of the day!'

Why do you assume all the other children were co-operating?
Where did the OP say that?

Whateveryousaymustberight · 04/04/2012 19:18

Eh?

soverylucky · 04/04/2012 19:20

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Feenie · 04/04/2012 19:22

Teacher would start the reading session with the announcement that it was time for the children to come to the circle for reading.
Yeah - but you don't know there wasn't.

There would be teacher-led discussion of the book as I described.
You don't know that that didn't happen either.

Then there would be a reminder that the story was about to start and a reminder about letting others hear the story.
You don't know she didn't do that, math.......oy, Math!!!

The children would be invited to tell the teacher how they were to behave as the story was being read.
you don't know she didn't do that either, Math.

Sometimes the teachers would stop and ask for comments from the children.
How do you know she didn't, and one little dc just carried on talking to her friend? IT HAPPENS

The points would correspond to beginning, middle, end. The children were asked to recap what had happened and anticipate what might happen next.
You don't know she didn't do that, Math.

Fgs, this is so tedious! Mathanxiety, it reads like every normal storytime in the world, ever. Nothing new at all. But none of those things would definitely, 100%, preclude a little girl talking if she felt like it.

exoticfruits · 04/04/2012 19:22

Thank you Mathanxiety- you really are teaching your grandmother to suck eggs now!!

soverylucky · 04/04/2012 19:22

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Oakmaiden · 04/04/2012 19:23

"Why do you assume all the other children were co-operating?"

Why do you assume that they weren't?

exoticfruits · 04/04/2012 19:24

I really must tie my hands down and leave. That long post about story telling really does take the Biscuit

Floggingmolly · 04/04/2012 19:24

So Math if the teacher in this instance had used a rhyme or a song to tell the child to stop chatting, instead of common or garden spoken words to get her message across - all this angst could have been avoided? Is this what your magic theory really boils down to? I have wasted hours of my life I'll never get back to arrive at this utter bollocks Sad

LeeCoakley · 04/04/2012 19:25

And why do you assume that the teacher you have described isn't the teacher in the op? She may have held up all manner of gloves but op's dd decided not to comply. So what would your teacher's method be when the child said no? Twice?

Oakmaiden · 04/04/2012 19:27

"If you do a three-year course, if you're lucky, you get four to five hours and if you're on a PGCE course, which is now how most teachers come into the profession, you're lucky if you get in between an hour and two hours on classroom management and behaviour."

How bizarre. I did a whole 20 credit module on behaviour management. And another on child development (or "Understanding the Learner" as it was called by the course).

soverylucky · 04/04/2012 19:33

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ilovesooty · 04/04/2012 19:33

I attended lectures throughout my course on child psychology and had to produce a thesis and sit an exam as well. How does Math know the teacher had inadequate training - and how does she come to the conclusion that the teachers on this thread who don't agree with her were inadequately trained?

LeQueen · 04/04/2012 19:35

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LeQueen · 04/04/2012 19:39

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Oakmaiden · 04/04/2012 19:41

Thing is LeQueen - it is not complete nonsense - she has just mixed a handful of complete nonsense in with the complete blinking obvious, and is assuming that if things were done "her way" there would be no p[roblems. That is what is so irritating - the assumption that no other person here knows anything about child development and if we would all just listen to her she would teach everyone how to do it properly.

When most of the "techniques" she suggests are commonplace anyway, and the others just wouldn't work in a class of 24 or 30 or whatever... Although would possibly be fine with an individual child or small group.

mathanxiety · 04/04/2012 19:44

Oakmaiden, I didn't assume they weren't. I asked how TheOriginalSteamingNit could assume they were. There is a difference.
''Can't be all that ignorant and unrealistic if all the other children were managing to live up to the wildly unreasonable expectation that they sit still and be quiet for a little while at the end of the day!'

As to whether I am making too many assumptions about what may or may not have happened in the classroom -- it seems everyone else is also making assumptions. In my case I am assuming the teacher fell short in her management strategy. In the case of just about everyone else, the attitude seems to be that the child was in the wrong.

Which brings us back to the comment from the BBC article I linked to:
"The endemic problem that we've had for far too long is that we're looking at the child and what is wrong with the child and we are not looking at what's wrong with the learning environment,"

Put that together with the fact that child development and child psychology are simply not a part of the curriculum for trainee teachers and haven't been for a long time, and the fact that classroom management gets a whole five hours devoted to it in the course of training, at most, and I come to the conclusion that I am right here in my assumptions.

I am also convinced in light of this thread that the view that the child must be wrong is one that has deep and possibly unshakeable cultural roots. In the wider scheme of things, teachers and others who adopt the default opinion that the children are probably the problem are themselves the problem.

Never have I been more grateful for the fact that my DCs weren't exposed to this sort of attitude in their early years in school.

TheFallenMadonna · 04/04/2012 19:46

Eh? Where are you getting your numbers from? Five hours?

ilovesooty · 04/04/2012 19:47

Do you really think that teachers don't attend training on behavioural management once they're qualified?

mathanxiety · 04/04/2012 19:48

The classrooms where the techniques worked held 25 to 29 children.

It is so bizarre that you can't bring yourselves to believe that there is a better way to do things than the way that resulted in a child crying.

Do you actually like children?
Do you enjoy the distress of children on some level?
Do you think distress should accompany learning?

Oakmaiden · 04/04/2012 19:49

Whereas you seem to be of the belief that the child could NEVER be wrong - and if they don't meet expectations it MUST be the fault of an inadequate teacher.

Which - as I think I said earlier - would be a rasonable assumption if the situation in the OP happened regularly, but as far as we know it has happened once. So I can't help feeling it looks much like a child having a chatty and then stubborn moment rather than a teacher who doesn't know anything.

But whatever.

LeQueen · 04/04/2012 19:51

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