To ask the nursery about grace?

[Stangirl]

My DD (2) attends a nursery 2 days a week - since last October. I am very happy with the nursery and love the way the staff are with the kids. DD seems very happy there.

They just had a Mother's Afternoon where the mums were invited in to attend a music and movement session, facepainting, playing, tea with the kids. I went along and it was lovely apart for one thing - one of the children was asked to say grace before the sandwiches and said a few words thanking god. I was shocked by this as I had believed them to be non-religious - teaching and celebrating all festivals etc but not active worshipping. As an avowed atheist I am quite perturbed.

Would you ask them if this is usual and if they are teaching them grace?

Anything that gets mother agitated about a few seconds grace must be at least interesting! It would pass unnoticed if left alone.

exotic - No. I work at the school.

You must be aware of the education acts then-they are breaking the law.

I agree. I might not like it though!
I'm not Christian so that's an additional twist.
Oddly I wouldn't care as much about my DC changing their religion as I would about them being so into organised religion in the first place.
Let me put it this way- they could choose whichever religion so long as they didn't really care about it. Which is sort of circular because why would they choose a religion if they didn't care about being religious or that religion. IYSWIM?
Will shut up now

exotic to answer your question

I do not mind my dc being taught about different religions as in 'some people believe this and some people believe that'. I don't want them to be taught or have it instilled that there is a god because to be it is a fundamental misunderstanding of the world. I don't believe god made Adam and Eve, I believe in evolution- and not as part of some intelligent design theory, but as a stand alone theory. I think it interfers with scientific understanding. I am passionate about science and nature, it is AMAZING, and it maddens me to have it attributed to a god I don't believe in

(it doesn't maddened me if other people believe in it, but it would maddened me if someone tried to teach my dcs a particular religious theory)

Inclusion and cohesion of some people necessarily means excluding the others.
As an example, being a non Christian (as an agnostic really, I still do show a religion on paper still, parents might be gutted if didn't, call me a wimp) I feel excluded from my local church's community building, even though I have prayed in a church before.
My initial reaction is to say "yah boo i've got a religion too" bit that would mean embracing my religion which obviously I don't want to do.
It's all silos really.

I will add that my BiL is a pastor. Him and his wife have both had very very traumatic lives. If it was not for their deep faith, I don't think they would have survived. They live in poverty but run a charity and care for a number of orphaned children. They are incredible people and are totally driven by their faith.

I do understand how important it is for some people. My atheism is also important to me

exotic - not really my area, but I've just looked it up and interestingly, according to the aims of collective worship, I suppose the school assemblies do broadly speaking cover the remit, except for "providing opportunities to worship God". The rest of the aims relates to issues which any atheist would consider important for children to think about - such as encouraging respect for others, and values such as courage, compassion, justice and forgiveness. As a multi-cultural school, they also focus on relgious festivals.

I would not characterise any of this as "worship" though

"The law requires schools to hold acts of collective worship which are ?wholly or mainly of a broadly Christian character? which ?reflect the broad traditions of Christian belief.?
? ?broad traditions of Christian belief? include ?loving one another?, ?forgiving each other? and ?caring for the world?.
These are similarly important beliefs for the world?s other principal religions and are values shared by many who do not adhere to a religious tradition.

? it is important to note that the legislation refers to ?the broad traditions of Christian belief? not Christian worship.
Therefore, schools are not expected to replicate the broad traditions of Christian worship such as would occur in a church"

This is from a guidance document for the local area.

seeker And what if the child was a Muslim, or belonged to some other Jon Christian faith? Is it ok for them to be asked to pray to a Christian god too?

Muslims, Jewish and Christians pray to the same 'God'.

If you're praying, beyond a point, does it matter who you're praying to?
It's the belief that counts IMO (if you are going to buy into religion).

I posted this (below) on a Primary thread, but I think it's relevant here too. It does sound as though this particular nursery manager was just being a bit dopey in not realising that parents might have an issue with toddlers saying grace, but there's a much wider issue once children get to school and they are at the mercy of their head teacher's religious agenda (even in non-church schools).

This piece by journalist Alex Renton sums up much more eloquently than I could why religion in schools seems wrong. It was originally published in the Times, but is reproduced on the Archbishop of Canterbury site:

The Archbishop writes to Lulu, aged 6, about God

One except from the article which struck a chord with me was:

"I was happy that the Bible should have a role in Primary 1, but not at all that religious credo and worldly truths should be taught to my daughter as the same thing. Her adored, excellent teachers ? thanks to whom she now writes letters ? were giving out indubitable information (two and two equals four) with the same weight as the highly dubious (God loves you).

Within a few weeks of school starting last August we found her praying at bedtime. That was rather sweet, on first sight, but then I thought: shouldn?t we have been asked? I felt that the evening ritual of teeth-brushing, story, song and kiss ? the most intimate between child and parent ? had been rather invaded. And while teaching the habit of praying to God to help one be good is hardly corrosive to the liberties of a six-year-old, I felt already that her moral education had been taken out of our hands and off on to controversial ground. In a small way, I felt she had been insulted. My clever, kind girl didn?t need some unexplained superbeing?s help to be good, nor should she so lightly be invited to pass over the responsibility."

OP here - didn't realise this thread had run on.

I feel that I've been a bit of a coward here, both on line and in real life I'm not a great one for confrontation, nor for trying to make anyone feel bad about themselves or anything they hold dear so I've let the other atheists go into bat on the wider issues raised by my post rather than contribute more myself.

However, as a mark of respect for the the remarkably cogent arguments set out and in recognition of the latent unease they have awakened I would like to thank the atheist posters for making me feel far more belligerent in my non-belief. If there is such a thing as militant atheism - show me where I sign up. But that is for me....

I will love and support my children in anything they wish to believe as they grow older and decide for themselves but no one, including me, has the right to indoctrinate them in anything that should be by right theirs to choose.

Love and peace to all (hippy by nature).

I think I have been confirmed in my belief that this is a topic that mumsnetters lose their collective common sense over.

You do realise that you are saying that it's absolutely fine for all children, from families of any faith and none, to be expected to behave like Christians when they are at nursery or school. To actually put their hands together, close their eyes and pray. Not to learn -about but to do. and that those of us who aren't Christiqns are being intolerant of Christianity if we say we don't want our children to do this. Bizarre.

seeker beautifully put. Thank you.

There seems to be a lot of misunderstandings. DCs do not have to put their hands together and close their eyes at school, they do however have to keep quiet and show repect for others.

It would appear, that contrary to what you said OriginalJamie, your school does hold assemblies. I would say that it is very similar in most schools and people are very out of touch as to what does happen-as in someone on another thread who was imagining singing 'Jesus wants me for a sunbeam'-which I have never heard in any school. It depends a lot on the Head and their interpretation of the education act (it shouldn't but it does).

I don't believe in Adam and Eve, bejeezus-your DCs are not going to be taught it in school.

I don't see why DCs of a faith family or a non faith family can't have all experiences, seeker. It is a complete accident of birth who you get. I hate the thought that I might be born into a particular family and that is me sorted!

I don't see how you make up your mind until you know the options.

I also think that people are very closed minded on the subject. Life is a journey-I think a certain thing at the moment-who knows what I might think in 5-10yrs time?

I think that atheists seem very insecure in that they think exposing a DC to grace or assembly is going to brainwash them. They seem to have no faith in their DC actually thinking for themselves. I would bring them up to question everything-starting with me.

My father was force fed religion as a DC and consequently was very anti. I can remember at about 10yrs old thinking his statements were pretty childish, for an adult, but they look quite sophisticated next to SGB's diatribes about imaginary friends!

Children are not stupid. Why not have debates? I used to have long, friendly arguments with my parents-they used to let me have my own opinions (even though they are fairly cringe worthy now)-they didn't try and censor everything I came across and believe that they should be the only ones to introduce a concept-in case (utter horror!) it was different from theirs!

I still haven't had anyone tell me why it is so important to have your DC think the same as you?

"I still haven't had anyone tell me why it is so important to have your DC think the same as you?"

It isn't.

"I think that atheists seem very insecure in that they think exposing a DC to grace or assembly is going to brainwash them. They seem to have no faith in their DC actually thinking for themselves. I would bring them up to question everything-starting with me. "

Well - if you truly want to go with that argument, why not have a different religion in assembly every day, and an atheist assembly? With children being told on each day that different things (Buddhism, Islam, Christianity, Judaism, atheism etc) are 'The Truth'? Maybe even venture into some of the more fringe stuff like Scientology, Mormonism, Jehovas Witnesses? Then they would have a nice broad basis from which they could make up their own minds?

""I think that atheists seem very insecure in that they think exposing a DC to grace or assembly is going to brainwash them. They seem to have no faith in their DC actually thinking for themselves. I would bring them up to question everything-starting with me. "

Yep, me too. But, going back to the OP, it's a bit much to expect a 2 year old to question why she is thanking God for h lunch!

"I don't see why DCs of a faith family or a non faith family can't have all experiences, seeker. It is a complete accident of birth who you get. I hate the thought that I might be born into a particular family and that is me sorted! ".

So how were you going to get children from Christian families having the experience of atheism? Or humanism?

exoticfruits - re the misunderstandings, it is any wonder? Schools definitely do NOT go out of their way to explain what their child will be taught with regard to Christianity and whether 'God is real'. I suspect this is because they know what a can of worms it might open.

Yes, the 'broadly Christian assembly' thing is there by law for all schools, but what does this actually mean? I know you kindly explained your experience of it on the other thread, but surely you can't say for certain what happens in each school?

And if the parents aren't happy with the way the school is approaching the teaching of Christianity as fact, the school is presumably quite within its rights to tell them to butt out?

Why not indeed Bonfire? I suspect it is because, like it or not, UK is a Christian country. Most people can miss the fact in everyday life. I wouldn't mind-I still think that my DCs would be atheists regardless.
I doubt whether the 2 yr old pays any attention at all-the only interest may come from Mother's reaction and they are too young for that to register much.

I admit to being surprised that the nursery does it-without mentioning it in the prospectus. Schools don't, on the whole, unless faith schools. I suspect it has been done without thought and the manager will now probably stop. It isn't something that I would think it worth changing nurseries for if I was happy with everything else.

So how were you going to get children from Christian families having the experience of atheism?

I think it is pretty easy-it is all around them! Mine had decided by 8yrs-I expect that most DCs are capable of working it out for themselves.

DCs are not told God is real-unless it is a church school and then they are forewarned!!

"I'm an atheist and at ds1 nursery they do some sort of little song about god before lunch. It doesn't bother me at all, I'm not sure why it would because I don't believe in any religion.

I don't think that ds will be "converted" by saying a prayer before lunch as this is only a small part of his life. He knows that different people believe different things and he's fine with that. If he does want to be converted at some point, it's up to him and that won't worry me either.

In fact I don't think it's a bad thing to say a few words about being grateful for the food you eat, whether it's to a god or not it makes you stop and think."

Well said Fragola.

Yes, the 'broadly Christian assembly' thing is there by law for all schools, but what does this actually mean?

It depends a lot on the Head.
OriginalJamie said they didn't have collective worship. It turned out they did have assembly-I would say that her experience is fairly common.