AIBU to think that WOHM's don't "do the same as SAHMs AND work too!"

[eppa]

Firstly this is not a WOHM bashing thread at all.

Its just that I'm a SAHM and have been offended and hurt by a couple of real life comments basically saying that I shouldn't complain as I'm only a SAHM and that WOHM have to do everything I do AND they manage to work as well.

I disagree with this because for me an average day includes: making and clearing up after three meals, going out to baby groups, park, docs appts, trying to think up and doing activities such as cooking and painting and reading AND trying to keep on top of the mess that having 2 children in the house all day entails.

However a WOHM would get DC up and dressed, drop them at nursery where they would get their 3 meals, do activities etc, pick them up and return to a house that was clean (or the same state as it was left in!).

Obviously both WOHMs and SAHMs work and they both work hard and WOHMs do parent when they are at home. Its just that I don't think its fair to claim that WOHMs somehow do more than SAHMS.

Allpastyears- agree, my work is far more pleasurable than most toddler groups. There were plenty of things I loved about being on ML with my babies but organised baby groups weren't among them

The question (which was to the OP Bonsoir, not to you because I think you and the OP actually differ a fair bit in your views) came from the fact the OP seems to regard SAHM as a career choice not a lifestyle choice, so it seems a little pointless to continue education if that is how she sees it. I have a feeling she views education a little differently to you as well.

I ask about the SAHD aspect as I think the OP is fairly rigid in her view that its something for women to aspire to but I doubt she (not you) would feel the same for men

SAHP is not a 'career' choice. Its either a lifestyle choice, or its enforced if you can't afford childcare. But no way is it a career!

I found being a SAHM tough when I had three under five, particularly when breast feeding a newborn with no outside help. There was a lot of watching the toddler teetering at the top of a climbing frame while trying to latch on a screaming DD3 in a windswept play park.

I'd say that the decision to go out to work or not is a pragmatic one based on many, many factors. The upside as a SAHM is that you have control day to day, the downside is the loss of independence , and for me a career that stalled and then died.

I would be happy for DDs and DSs to be SAHP or WOHP. Education is important first though as it is harder to do later after children. Also you may want/need to work. It gives you more options. Also education is not wasted just because you are a SAHP. Many SAHP help in schools or other organisations. DC's school often states that it can only do certain trips if they have parent helpers. Most of us are SAHP.

Thanks jelly, but again my question was because I think the OP has very gender rigid ideas. I also think she might view education differently which is why I was asking her. I don't think her views are shared by everone else on the thread be they SAHP or otherwise

Although - you don't need a GCSE to help out on a school trip so not sure what your point is there?

These thread always descend into retaliation posting.

Many on here, like me, will be both sahms and wohms at different times. So the 'brainless idle dullard' vs 'neglectful selfish careerbitch' stereotypes are pretty bizarre.

I adored my dc equally before and after quitting my career. I did not suddenly become idle and thick because I left my job. If I went bavk it wouldn't be because I didn't like my dc much anymore. Well maybe the last one has a little smudge of truth

Do stop battering each other with this stepford wives vs shoulder padded Thatcher nonsense.
No wonder fuck all gets done about family friendly work. We are all too happy kicking the shit out of each it her to turn our attention to fathers and employers and how to change things.

Education makes such a huge difference to the way you relate to the world IMHO

(including being more considered & reflective about how you raise your children)

It's not just to make you more employable !

I totally agree juggling

And well said Pagwatch

Love the "brainless idle dullard" vs "neglectful selfish careerbitch"

Yes, like you I've juggled with various combinations in a hopefully considered, educated, and pragmatic way.

I would like to see lots more part time work, particularly for men.

Then there would be more jobs to go round, less unemployment and fathers would have more time at home with the kids and have more similar working and home lives to mothers.

What Pagwatch said plus the fact the reason we are ALL over worked is cos men don't do their share.

I agree that over work and stress is emerging as a problem here, I don't know if it's because men don't do their share, I think there are big differences between men in that respect. But I think it is so wrong that parents (of either sex) have to have such stressed, high pressure lifestyles and be on the verge of breakdowns, just to afford the basics in life or to ensure their children don't miss out on opportunities. I feel very fortunate to live in a country where most people can support a family on one income and have a good lifestyle (although I suppose opinions differ widely as to what that is).

Isn't there a big problem with the country when both parents have to endure this stressful lifestyle, when people feel it's well nigh impossible to get by on one income?

Catgirl
In answer to your first question as to whether I would be happy for my DS to be a stay at home parent the answer would be that I would be more than happy for him to do that and would be proud if he made that choice.

I have used the terms WOHM/SAHM as this is mainly a thread for women but could just as easily but in WOHD/SAHD. My view would still remain that a dad who stayed at home to look after the children is doing the same ammount of work as a father who went out to work and was just as valuable to society.

With regards to wanting my daughter to leave school at 16 to have children - no I would like her to go to university and then spend time doing what she wanted travelling/career etc. Then when she had children I would like her to be a SAHM (although obviously its up to her what she does!). I don't think that being eductated, having a career and being a SAHM are mutually exclusive.

When I was growing up I wanted a career but also knew that when I did have children I would like to be a SAHM so you can surely aspire to both? Working lives are now about 45 years (based on starting work after uni at 20 and retiring at 65) so surely there is time to do both?

Also I don't know why you are saying education is not important to me. I have a degree and a postgraduate qualification. I don't think that being a SAHM wastes my education in any way.

Hmm it's not as simple as that though. I think living on one income can me more stressful if the parents end up with polarised roles, one having all the pressure of earning and maybe having to work longer hours than they'd like, or take a more pressurised role, and the other having virtually all of the domestic side of things to deal with.

Personally I find it works far better for us to have more equally split roles. Neither of us feel pressurised to go for promotions we don't want, because we share earning (and home) responsibilities. Obviously not all couples are the same and some are completely happy to take on traditional roles, but tbh it seems entirely normal to me that many women and men want to enjoy a career and home stuff

That was in response to bugsters post

I am a hybrid, pag I am a selfish neglectful idle dullard careerbitch! Best of both worlds.

Bugster

I agree. I actually think there should be much more financial support available for people who want to be SAHMs, whereas currently all the incentives seem to be to get women back into the workplace asap.

Govt could consider increasing child benefit for the first 3 years of a childs life, giving tax breaks to the working parent the partnership, encouraging banks to give longer mortgage holidays to those with young children.

But I don't think they will do this as parents and children are not high on the agenda.

OrmIrian

OP, it's clear from your initial posts that you find staying at home hard and sometimes frustrating. You said you should nt be ashamed to admit that you had negative feeling about it and I wholeheartedly agreed with you.

I think the idea that all women should somehow adore being a SAHM is nonsense. It's also very sexist. We don't assume all men would love ot be SAHDs do we?

However, it's clear from your more recent posts that you feel women should stay at home. And that DC are damaged by women not doing so.

This puts you in a terrible position! You feel you have to do somehting that is not making you happy for the sake of your DC. That if you were to put your own feelings first you would be sacrifcing your DC's happiness.

It's a no win situation for you and a million women like you.

So when someone comes along and says what you're doing is easy you feel furious. Undertsanable.

But lashing out at other women who don't want or indeed can't make the sacrifice you are making won't help. It won't make you feel better. And they won't all change their minds and suddenly join you in the ultimate sacrifice.

Far far better, to concentrate on making your own life as lovely as it can be. Focus on all the positive things about it. Ditch som eof those chores that really really don't need to be done (either by a SAHP or a WOHP). Make lots of friends who love their life. Ditch the ones who endlessly list how hard it all is.

When I was a SAHM, one of the worst things was those other bloody Mums who a. spent the whole time saying how hard it is to bring up kids and listing what they did in a day and b. those Mums who talked up every little chore as if it had momumental significance.

Make friends with women like pag

wordfactory - that's a great post.

If you think it is interchangable whether father or mother stays at home, then I really don't understand why the op would want her daughter to be a SAHM - surely the decision about who stays home would be made between the dd and her partner? Sounds like op's mind is made up about who should be the one at home - and not surprisingly, it's the woman.

Agree

callmemrs I agree if evrything is rigidly split between the at home parent doing all that's house and children related, and the working parent doing all the earning, that can be really stressful and confining too. I'm not an advocate of that. Just think it's sad if both parents have to work all hours plus all other house and child responsibilities. If people find that frantic suits them fine, and I'm sure it does suit a few, but it sounds like many are forced into it and unhappy with it. i think it's a big problem for British society, something that needs to be adressed more. When you're forced into that situation, it's not the feminist dream, it's wage slavery.

eppa here in Switzerland you pay tax on your whole household income, not per individual wage earner, and you pay at a lower rate if there is only one wage earner per household. That is an incentive for one parent to stay at home, coupled with the fact childcare is difficult to find and very expensive, lunches aren't provided at school and your child comes home - life is basically much easier for the whole family if a parent is at home.

That sounds like a nightmare scenario for the working mother and indeed is a problem for those household who want 2 working parents, unless they earn enough to afford a nanny. In theory it sounds totally retrograde and I found it shocking at first. In practise, though, I think it enables most people to have much less stressful family lives.

Sorry shpuld have been 'in practice'