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AIBU?

Share your dilemmas and get honest opinions from other Mumsnetters.

Original poster

to think that everyone should be forced to see homosexuals as equal......

291 replies

PosiePumblechook · 11/03/2012 09:51

In every discussion regarding gay marriage, or marriage as I like to call it, there seems to be this crazy insistence that the church/mosque/Synagogue won't be forced to perform gay marriages.... It's still okay for them to condemn it too.

Why are people, some of which are not homophobic, still following a God that, at best, is homophobic?

OP posts:
Codandchops · 12/03/2012 07:57

Wamster, I am a soon to be Catholic, and am more than aware that the church is not great. This is because it is run by human beings and they are flawed. I take the view that change will only come from people within the faith, and I openly say the things I disagree with.

I am not shocked by the stance the church have taken, there are loads of things I don't like within the faith but there ARE good people in the Catholic church too who want change and are saying so - this isn't just the congregations but some priests too.

Will be discussing this issue with my priest friend tonight, he is very anti some of the things the church does so I'll be interested to hear his views in more detail about this.

ImproperlyAcquainted · 12/03/2012 08:15

Tw1gl3 you are missing the point. The governments new legislation has nothing to do with forcing religious institutions to conduct ceremonies, its intended to change civil partnerships into marriages. The church wants to stop homosexual couples marrying in registry offices.

It is equivalent to the Kosher butcher not selling pork and insisting pork cannot be sold anywhere else.

Lividcatholic · 12/03/2012 08:31

Absolutely, Improperly! I am well aware of the Catholic Church's stance but that doesn't mean I agree an it doesn't mean that I think they should be allowed to peddle this revolting hatred in the media and in front of their congregation on a Sunday. Civil marriage is nothing to do with the church and using mass in this way and spouting rubbish in the name of God is not acceptable to me.

swallowedAfly · 12/03/2012 08:35

your analogy does not work tw1 because whilst it's true you're not jewish it's not true that homosexual christian is not christian.

yes reality is we've discussed an angle that isn't even in dispute at present - the reality is that it is the church trying to interfere with civil law and what can happen at the civil registry office - not society interfering with the church.

seeker · 12/03/2012 08:44

This may be a very naive question- but why would anyone join the Catholic church at the moment? I can understand why somebody who has always been a member not wantingto leave- but actually joining it?

YonWhaleFish · 12/03/2012 09:13

from the catholic bishop letter: "It would reduce it just to
the commitment of the two people involved."

That for me is why I got married. Not because of breeding. I didn't get married in church, I had a civil ceremony as I am not religious. I don't see my definition of marriage as a problem.

One of the strongest arguments in the letter concerns family, that the objective of marriage is to raise and educate children. Same sex people can do this. I admit the process is more difficult, but the intention is the same, to get married, and raise a happy family together.

Why can't the church see that?

LittleAlbert · 12/03/2012 09:58

"the objective of marriage is to raise and educate children"

Not nowadays it isn't. That statement just makes me Angry

And where was the Catholic churches commitment to the welfare of children when they were being abused by priests?

It's hypocrisy, it makes me so angry. How dare they tell me as a woman that the purpose of my commitment to my husband is to have children. How dare they.

(And I am an unmarried mother of three and very happy thanks)

ImproperlyAcquainted · 12/03/2012 10:00

This is my response to that bit of the letter

"Homosexuality doesn?t threaten my marriage, what threatens my marriage is the premise that all it is is a means to reproduce. I am the woman, I will bear children and my worth will be determined by that and by that alone. If I am not valued for anything other than my genes and genitals then I am enslaved by my own biology. I am not a person and if I?m not a person I can?t be in a marriage, at least not a marriage that has any real value. "

Whatmeworry · 12/03/2012 10:03

I am against anyone being forced to believe anything.

seeker · 12/03/2012 10:05

Nobody can be forced to believe anything. They can, however, be forced to comply with the law of the land.

YonWhaleFish · 12/03/2012 10:07

Exactly, but the basis of the argument against gay marriage seems to be entirely based on the "children" thing.

Which is bollocks as well as the excellent points made by imp and littlealbert.

Whatmeworry · 12/03/2012 10:09

Nobody can be forced to believe anything. They can, however, be forced to comply with the law of the land.

I think any "Law of the Land" will become an ass if it tries to force a belief resisted by a large number of people.

AKMD · 12/03/2012 10:40

YABU. The argument in favour of gay marriage is about the rights of a minority. Why are the rights of a gay minority more important than the rights of a religious minority?

FWIW the church I am a member of strongly opposes gay marriage and sees sexual acts between homosexuals as serious sins, for which a member can be excommunciated. No member of the church would be allowed to perform gay marriage ceremonies so what you are proposing would mean the effective closure of the church. I am not for that.

YonWhaleFish · 12/03/2012 10:50

Is allowing gay marriage within a church in the eyes of God/Allah et al if that particular church wants to perform it a compromise? Would that ever happen? There are millions of individuals involved in church and religions who all think and feel differently, so surely there must be church communities out there who are accepting of gay marriage and relationships, as being gay doesn't make you an atheist.

LittleAlbert · 12/03/2012 10:50

We are not talking about compelling churches to marry gay couples, we are talking about making it legal so that the churches that want to do it can do it.

It will also make clear which churches are still in the dark ages when it comes to loving relationships.

AKMD · 12/03/2012 10:56

There have been plenty of posters so far who have said that religious groups should be forced to perform gay marriages. That is using the preferences of one minority to trump the preferences of another, which isn't really on.

If anyone can find me a single verse in the Bible that says that acts of homosexuality are not sinful then I would be interested to see it. AFAIK man doesn't have the power to change what God thinks just because it happens not to be fashionable. God loves everyone equally but not always the things that they do.

YonWhaleFish · 12/03/2012 11:00
is a good video.
Whatmeworry · 12/03/2012 11:00

Is allowing gay marriage within a church in the eyes of God/Allah et al if that particular church wants to perform it a compromise?

That IMO is the correct approach.

LittleAlbert · 12/03/2012 11:08

"AFAIK man doesn't have the power to change what God thinks just because it happens not to be fashionable"

How do you know what God thinks? Through the Bible? Have you read the Bible? What if God is actually quite happy for homosexuality to be celebrated by the church? What if he has his own disco ball in the sky?

ComposHat · 12/03/2012 11:53

I can get married in church

Not exactly. It isn't an absolute legal right to a church wedding.

As I understand it, you have to persuade a minister to marry you. They could refuse if you were a divorcee or for a host of other reasons.

I can't see the point of using the law to force homophobic clergy/rabbis/imams to perform marriages through gritted teeth. It would be demeaning to the couple concerned.

It certainly wouldn't want to marry in those circumstances.

KalSkirata · 12/03/2012 11:58

marking place

ComposHat · 12/03/2012 12:02

If anyone can find me a single verse in the Bible that says that acts of homosexuality are not sinful

The bilbe prohibits many things like cutting your hair or eating shellfish, things that churches like yours get rather less worked up about.

Jesus had plenty to day about homosexuality here is the sum total of his pronouncements.

".

                                            "
LittleAlbert · 12/03/2012 12:16

I think Jesus was very sensible.

Pendeen · 12/03/2012 12:43

"... to think that everyone should be forced to see homosexuals as equal .."

What a daft idea.

ArielNonBio · 12/03/2012 12:44

FWIW the church I am a member of strongly opposes gay marriage and sees sexual acts between homosexuals as serious sins, for which a member can be excommunciated.

So just out of interest, what does happen to the men and women who find they are gay in your church? I guess the choice is:

  1. hide it from others and carry on
  2. accept it, come out and therefore be cast out and excomminucated
  3. get over it because after all it is a lifestyle choice Hmm

Presumably God will know anyway so any kind of action or lack of action is pointless. And whatever happened to "Judge not lest ye be judged" and all that?

Very strange.