to think that everyone should be forced to see homosexuals as equal......

[PosiePumblechook]

In every discussion regarding gay marriage, or marriage as I like to call it, there seems to be this crazy insistence that the church/mosque/Synagogue won't be forced to perform gay marriages.... It's still okay for them to condemn it too.

Why are people, some of which are not homophobic, still following a God that, at best, is homophobic?

Legal definitions can be changed though - that doesnt bar the definition of marriage being expanded.

yabu. There's no way that these religions should be forced in anyway to perform gay marriages.
Same-sex marriage should be 100% legal and carry all the same legal benefits.

i think logically if you're going to allow religious institutions to be exceptions to the law then where do you draw the line? ok to refuse to marry gays but not ok to perform forced marriages? ok to be anti lesbians but not ok to be antisemitic?

either they're bound by the laws of the land as decided by elected governments or they're a law unto themselves. we live in a secular state so it should be the latter.

otherwise we'd end up like america and look where women's rights over their own life are going there.

"homosexuality is not allowed in various religions" This is one of, the many, abhorrent things about religion.

I was NOT impressed to hear the letter on marriage, here, read out in church this morning

why the focus on this, when there are so many good things they could be doing?

Firawla - Come on! Islam does not see homosexuals as equal.

Not picking out Islam, neither does Catholicism for example.

they can't be forced to perform them mayor but they can be legislated as breaking the law when they don't. then they can choose whether they want to change their practice or break the law and take the consequences the same as any other individual or institution or organisation within society.

MI....Does that mean infertile couples cannot marry?

YABU. It's impossible to force people how to think. Anyone who tries or wants to do that is far more dangerous than those who refuse to have any part in union ceremonies for homosexuals.

imagine being a christian woman, having spent your whole life in the church and it being a huge part of your identity and life. you live in a country that has legally recognised gay marriage and you want to get married, because you are christian you want to get married in church but your church refuses on the grounds that you are gay even though you live in a society which has made it illegal to discriminate on the grounds of sexuality.

i believe that person should have recourse to the legal system the same as anyone else would if they were being discriminated against at work or by the state for example.

why should not have the right to take that organisation to court for discrimination?

graham but you can, and we do as a society, make it illegal and prosecutable to act on those thoughts in a way that discriminates against gay people, women, disabled people etc. we already have this litmus stick you know? why should the church be an exception?

"If you are a true follower of a homophobic religion then you're homophobic in my book. Claiming you're a devout whatever but you are ok with gay people is bollocks, you either subscribe to a religion and all its beliefs or you don't. It's for that reason that I'm no longer Catholic."

That's a bit too black and white though. Are you saying that anyone who believes in God (or any God) is homophobic? I think it is perfectly possible to belong to a religion and not be homophobic.

the joyfulpuddle - yes, and i believe they should have to face the same legal response to that bigotry and incitement to discriminate as anyone else could.

we can all say or do whatever we like but with the full knowledge that we will face the consequences.

we have laws.

People can't be forced to "think" anything. However, they can and should be forced to behave according to the law.

I think you can be religious and not be homophobic. Not all religious people buy into everything their religion says. But I don't think religion is a valid excuse for homophobia

exactly seeker.

It's possible not to be homophobic and religious, but unlikely. If you believe the word of God then surely you must be homophobic, it seems a convenience for most.

I think that legal marriage and religious marriage should be separate. I think legal marriage should be for any couple who is prepared to sign up to it. Because of that, it should not be available anywhere that discriminates against same sex couples. A religious marriage ceremony could be separate and ceremonial, rather than legal.

Have been thinking about this Posie. My first instinct was to say YABU, but actually on reflection I think you are right. After all if a religion said it was against their beliefs to marry couples of different ethnic origins, we wouldn't accept that.

Is it the case that any minister/priest etc can refuse to marry anyone? Some won't marry you if you're divorced, for example, or living together or not attending the church. On that basis I don't see how they could be forced to marry gay people.
I do always love these blanket comments on religion, given there are many churches (not just individuals) that entirely support gay people, have gay clergy etc.

Yy Karma

You have put it very well.

It's shocking how stone age people's views are on homosexuality - it has always existed, there's evidence of an eviction art explanation for homosexuality.

It is not some aberration, and the sooner religion recognises this, the better.

...Though not enough of course.

And how would this legislation be worded in a way that would not effectively outlaw all religions or any groups or charities which provide specific support for certain sections of soceity.
i.e. if the position is that a church would be breaking the law for refusing to perform a same-sex marriage,despite it being against their faith, on the grounds that it would be discriminating on the basis of sexuality then would a mosque/synagogue/church be in violation of the law for refusing to allow or perform marriages of people of another religion. Surely if a synagogue refused to perform a marriage ceremony for non-jews in circumstances where they would do so for a jewish couple they would now be discriminationg on the grounds of religion.
People have freedom of association and I don't see why it should be illegal for a group to set their own criteria for membership. The religious ceremony of marriage carries no legal weight nor does it bestow any legal rights or benefits. As such if these religions want to remain in their bigotted backward way then let them.