To think that bullies shouldn't get rewards for not bullying?

[DrSeuss]

So, my son came home with a badly bruised knee with a smallish cut the other day. He said that this happened when he was pushed over the class bully. I immediately contacted the school who were really helpful, questioned the bully, then rang me back. I was told that the boy's mother had been called in after the boy had admitted pushing my son over and that the boy had been placed on report. I was happy with this as an outcome until today, when my son told me that the bully gets a sticker for each of the three daily breaks when he behaves and that on day five, if he has fifteen stickers, he will get to choose an item from the class goody basket.

I'm not suggesting that they impose a stringent punishment on a child of six but is that really the way to go? If I had set it up, I would have given a sticker on a chart for each break with no reward for a week's worth of stickers but a telling off and the mother called in again if any stickers were missed due to bad behaviour. It just seems to me that you ought not to reward a bully for not bullying. The majority of the children in the class don't bully and to me that's normal, not requiring special praise.
Thoughts?
Oh, btw, this is not the first time he has picked on my son and my son is not the only child this boy has bullied. That's not hearsay, two other mothers have told me they have made complaints last half term.

But getting a sticker and collecting them until the end of the week before getting a prize at school is no different to getting a tick in a book and getting a prize at the end of the school day on a Friday.

It's just less conspicuous to the other children who do exactly the same thing that is being rewarded while getting nothing.

The only difference is that the bullied child won't see it and so there is no room for confusion about why the reward is being given, and other children who also find it hard to behave well but haven't been put on report yet will see no incentive to go on report.

My own son had to be interviewed by police & spend 6 hours at the hospital earlier this week after a nasty assault. His attackers were 9 & 12 years old and they could have killed him, (he's 7). This means that right now I'm feeling angry that MORE kids aren't getting access to the behavioral interventions they need.

The ignorance & narrow minded bigotry expressed on this thread is a huge contributory factor as to why my lad is suffering as he is right now. Too many children with behavioral problems (often developmentally related) are denied access to timely professional support and instead their antisocial behavior deteriorates as they grow.

I really think some of you need to really listen to the advice given by those on this thread with professional expertise of anti-social behavior management in young children have so kindly given re rewards and how motivation affects learning in this age group. The faster and more effectively anti-social behavior can be rectified the better, before the developmental window is lost and the opportunity gone forever.

www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2108287/Schoolgirl-11-raped-underage-street-gang-members-McDonalds-restaurant-toilet.html?ICO=most_read_module
This is what happens when the opportunity is lost. It's a very high price to pay.

Be damn grateful your own child doesn't suffer the kind of neurological deficit that would make this professional intervention necessary. The method used is scientifically evidence based as opposed to some amateur "opinion" - this stuff is too serious for amateurs btw. If it seems a bit "odd", to us as lay people, well the human mind is an "odd" thing, that's why people spend so many years studying it before implementing these and similar techniques, after conducting scientifc trials to ensure they are effective.

Praise and encourage your child for continued compliance with societal norms and thank the school for being far-sighted enough to have stepped in to get the other child sorted out, preventing future potential serious crime statistics.

Stop being so damn precious and look at the bigger long term picture. What sort of society do we ALL want our kids to inhabit in 20 years?

I'm not advocating revenge for bad behaviour

No child is going to have their confidence and self esteem damaged by having their chair kicked a couple of times, you can't compare that to bullying.

I agree that carrot works better than stick, I agree that children should be encouraged to be proud and supportive of each others achievements.

I am not missing the point, I have said I can see how the reward system works for the child with the behaviour problem more than once on this thread. My point is that they are not the only child who should be considered. The feelings of the bullied children matter too, and it matters when a small group of disruptive children see the most disruptive ring leader being rewarded as well. It sends a bad message, I don't understand why people can't see that that.

It's the public acknowldgment of acheivement that makes it valued. No child is that thrilled by simply receiving a sticker. Giving it in a hole in the corner way 'well done X, but shhh don't tell anyone' simply isn't going to be such an incentive. if it's worth rewarding, it's worth doing it publicly.

In the OP the bullying child was punished by being placed on report and his parent called into school. The teacher then proceeded to attempt to reward improved behaviour. Just as many parents have done to get their child to stay in bed/eat dinner nicely/brush their teeth etc.

Carrot almost always works better than stick, so IMO you need to teach your children that they should be proud of their classmates when they succeed not jealous of them.

Well said Bochead. I am so sorry about what happened to your son, is he ok?

I thought the being placed on report was the same as the sticker thing? I got the impression that they weren't two separate things. So it didn't to me sound like there was any punishment. Having a parent called into school is not a punishment!

And it's nothing to do with one child getting something another is not. I thought I'd explained that but maybe I'm not getting myself across clearly.

If I or DH were called into school because my children were in trouble, they'd be mortified. I think it is a punishment.

Life isn't fair, not all are created equal. The other kid has a specific problem, in an area yours doesn't.

What are you gonna do when your kid comes last in the egg and spoon race? Or someone else's pet dog win's the rosette? Grow up.

Being able to take genuine joy and not suffer envy at witnessing another's achievement is a key life skill. What are you doing to teach it to your child? How are you helping your child to master self-motivation?

It's pointless choosing my lad to be on your team in PE. Doesn't stop him cheering on his mates when they play against other school though. He knows he gets praise for other things, he gets that some kids find a variety of things harder than one another. That humans generally learn different things at different rates and in different ways.

Praise your own kid. I expect the teacher makes a special effort to praise your own child verbally (cos not many kids beyond nursery NEED stickers to motivate their learning) when she complete the sums for a maths topic or something SHE finds challenging. Though not being a fly on the wall you are probably unaware of it even happening.

Sometimes I'll "do a deal" with my lad's teacher on a Monday so that if he gets a good report for something he finds hard , we'll pop to the bakery after school on Friday. Motivating and encouraging a child isn't just the school's responsibility - you have a part to play in your own child's progress.

Putting a child on report means usually the book has to be signed by every teacher that has them in class with a comment should the behaviour stay bad. That is what happens in senior school. If behaviour is still bad then a bigger consequence occurs or more serious strategies.

The child is being watched.

From a 6yr olds point of view if he has a report then he is constantly reminded each day that he had done something bad and he is being watched. And so he has to consider his actions of the day at the end of every day and expect discussion if things go wrong. That can make a child very anxious and can make a situation worse for a child with behavioural issues or insecurity issues.

So at the end of the day the child is either a) having another chat about appropriate behaviour or b) having his efforts recognised by way of a sticker.

The bullied child can have the assurity and publicy see that X is either being told his behaviour is not acceptable which surely must help in the child seeing her ordeal has been justified, or that X is trying really hard with his emotions and so can gain confidence back in the playground that X has improved.

I really dont see a problem with it. It helps both.

This is soo much more about what the parents think than what the children think.

Parents please stop passing your judgemental shit onto your children.

Meant to add It helps both if the child is NT.

If not then it can have disasterous consequences on a child with low self esteem or SN

No, zzzz, the analogy you wrote about is inaccurate. A more accurate comparison would be that a child scribbles and defaces an exercise book and then is given a reward for not scribbling in the book - I think this is a fair analogy to a child who physically abuses another child and then stops physically assaulted children. To get a sticker for NOT scribbling in your book is absurd and no one gets those. To get a sticker for Not physically abusing another child is also absurd.

OrmIrian - a bribe is alway a bribe - when you have to offer up some reward in order to get a child to do something that they ought to do, that is a bribe. I have never bribed my child. I have not asked him to behave this way or that and that I would then get him something if he did...ridiculous! If I did that, I would probably be broke by now, as the rising cost of goods to keep him appeased would bankrupt me!

What next, should we be giving rewards to those children who previously did not wipe their bottoms, since they now are?

What about giving rewards for children who put their trousers or skirts on the correct way?

No, how about giving rewards to those children who do not sleep in class...

No? Wait a minute - we don't give rewards for those things because it is a given that they are what civility is all about those are minimum requirements.

Those of you who keep banging on about the poor child who is disruptive needing some sympathy and understanding... no one is denying that they need sympathy and understanding. They need help to overcome their lack of social skills and normal mores of society - by all means, we need to help them - not banish them...BUT, they should not be held up as pillars of the "community" in the same week as they have punched little "joey" in the face! They, the offending child, should realise that what they have done is wrong and how on earth would that child understand that if, at the end of the week where he has pummelled a kid or two, he received praise...(yeah, yeah, I know,..it will understand because he would have been told..yes, right, a 6 year old with stickers or treats in his hand will understand the verbiage...you've been naughty but here is the good bag now...pick a prize...)

Bochead - How would you feel if your child's attackers were in the press tomorrow and lauded over their incredible ability to refrain from attacking anyone for the past 24 hours - would that seem fair to you?

I sincerely hope your child recovers from his terrible ordeal, but I can't help feeling that if anti social behaviour was not indulged more in school, then it wouldn't be the problem that it is today.

Is a sticker for writing a good story a bribe then? Because it's something every child should be able to do surely.

To treat people equally you don't treat them the same.

This is enshrined in law.

Don't you ever use a star chart? You must be one of the few parents who never have. Think yourself lucky you've never had, for example, a bad sleeper.

There are just some actions that cross the line of acceptability and physical violence is one of them. To compare getting a sticker for writing a good story to getting a sticker because one refrained from physically assaulting another is preposterous. There are some things that ought to expected of all of us as human beings - this should be made understood from an early age. Children should learn that they ought not cross the line and commit violent offences against anyone else. If this matter is tiptoed around and blurred with promises of gifts or rewards...then a child gets into the "what's in it for me" mode.

Besides...this isn't even the issue. The issue is whether the victim's feelings should be considered and clearly a lot of you think not.

If a reward system has to be put into place, it should be done inconspicuously - this bullies feelings should NOT be taking precedent over the victim's - why should it? Have you ever been wronged? Would you have been pleased if the person who wronged you was praised right in front of your face? Really, this is not such a difficult concept to understand - it is damn unfair to not consider the victim's feelings. Seriously, I can't imagine that a lot of you do not see this point - it must be because you are all the parents of children who usually are on the other side of this coin?

"it must be because you are all the parents of children who usually are on the other side of this coin!"

No mummie. Not at all. DS2 was being bullied last term. Not badly and not for long but it was distressing. It doesn't mean i can't see things from both sides.

Well Mummle, my DS ought to sit still in class. He ought to listen when spoken to and follow instructions that he is given. He ought not to shout out during discussion times and he ought to let other kids get a word in edgeways. He ought not to crash into children when running about and playing (as I said, this can easily be construed as pushing) and if he does so he ought to stop, check the other person is ok and apologise. These too are all pretty basic requirements from most children. Doesn't mean he finds them any the less difficult though, through no fault of his own, and it doesn't mean that giving him the skills and strategies he needs to manage such basic behaviour and rewarding improvement in those areas is a bribe. As I said, in the long term he will cause far more disruption without the reward than he will with it.

What next, should we be giving rewards to those children who previously did not wipe their bottoms, since they now are?

YES if that was the problem and a child had a sensory issue doing it then YES

Its called an ACHIEVMENT award and well worth giving.

Same for dressing oneself same for anything that a child is having great difficulty with including behaviour...........

Mummie

How would you do it?

Surely the only important thing is that you get the behaviour you want? Who cares how it is achieved?

When ds1 was 5 he was in mainstream (severely autistic). He needed to work to rewards (rewarding things like sitting on a chair) and the only reward he was allowed was stickers or bubbles. He HATED stickers, and had zero interest in bubbles it was utterly pointless. He needed to be rewarded by crisps as that was the only thing he cared about in the whole world. The response? 'It wouldn't be fair on the other children'. Er it wasn't particularly fair on ds1 that he couldn't talk (still can't 7 years later but hey ho).

If you are going to work with challenging behaviours you need to use something that the child will recognise as a reward. You have to - it's how reinforcement of good behaviour works. Ideally you have a child who will be reinforced by many different items so you can choose something that fits in with other kids, but if you can't, if you have a child who only responds to very limited rewards, then tough - you have to work with that. At least initially, with a view to expanding reinforcers later. Or you may as well step back and watch the behaviour become more and more challenging.

(We were lucky and could move ds1 to a sensible special school).