To think that bullies shouldn't get rewards for not bullying?

[DrSeuss]

So, my son came home with a badly bruised knee with a smallish cut the other day. He said that this happened when he was pushed over the class bully. I immediately contacted the school who were really helpful, questioned the bully, then rang me back. I was told that the boy's mother had been called in after the boy had admitted pushing my son over and that the boy had been placed on report. I was happy with this as an outcome until today, when my son told me that the bully gets a sticker for each of the three daily breaks when he behaves and that on day five, if he has fifteen stickers, he will get to choose an item from the class goody basket.

I'm not suggesting that they impose a stringent punishment on a child of six but is that really the way to go? If I had set it up, I would have given a sticker on a chart for each break with no reward for a week's worth of stickers but a telling off and the mother called in again if any stickers were missed due to bad behaviour. It just seems to me that you ought not to reward a bully for not bullying. The majority of the children in the class don't bully and to me that's normal, not requiring special praise.
Thoughts?
Oh, btw, this is not the first time he has picked on my son and my son is not the only child this boy has bullied. That's not hearsay, two other mothers have told me they have made complaints last half term.

Personally, anyone who thinks that schools are wasting limited resources on stickers and then suggests extensive counselling instead has a screw loose. They can't afford stickers, but they can afford someone to talk at length to the child 1 on 1... but yet they shouldn't be giving them any additional attention as it will be misconstrued by the "victim" children.

Oh, and the old standby... they're definitely not chidren with SNs, definite sure, because they don't have a statement (news flash, not all children with SNs have statements!!) .. it's just the parents' faults as they never taught them no and they were overindulged. Of course.

To be honest, the only smugness I see is those parents who do not have a child that has behavioural problems or SNs dumping their lofty opinions based on assumptions and lack of education without regard for the children and what's best for them. I'm just sitting here with my bingo card.... once we get "they just need discipline or a good smack" then I'll have a full house....

What Mummle said.

Triggles, of course I know who is statemented or not in my school! I know who is on School Action and School Action +, I know what their IEP's are... I make it my business to know the children I interact with. Even before I worked at a school, I knew who the SEN children were, as my child and all the other children and parents knew who they were. In fact, all the children at the school where I work know who the SEN children are too - there is not much that escapes one's notice when you are together for over 6 hours a day, five days a week... children know who is getting special help and why they are...children know who the more able children in the class are and who the less able are...they know what academic "ability" group they are considered to be in... We would all have to be pretty non-observant not to know these facts. That is why children would not be too upset if "Joey", who has very mild aspergers, pushed him over...because they know that it is not without malice or real intent... On the other hand, "Harry", who has his mother working in the school and feels that he can get away with murder, abuses the rules and bullies other children and then gets a reward scheme to "reform" him... This is just the type of indulgence that makes me sick, quite frankly.

Triggles - Newsflash - I have never posted that stickers were a wasted resource or that my dislike for them being a money issue - get your facts straight. Stickers are dirt cheap - you are obviously referring to someone else's post.

Another newsflash - children who do not have a statement, but that have a special need not severe enough or "deemed" not severe enough, are still put onto the SEN Register - But, I suppose you did not know this, did you?

Triggles - Have we deteriorated to personal attacks now? That is a sure sign that you have run out of any valid argument. Either that, or you are trying to bully me?

We are not talking about statemented SEN children here. You have missed the point, the issue is about children whose only issue is that they are bullies and beat up children. This issue is not related to a child who has Aspergers or Autism - that is quite obviously forgivable and a whole other issue. Please, let's not start grasping at straws!

I am not missing the point. And I am well aware of the issue.

You asked should we give a child rewards for wiping his bottom and I answered it.... the answer is yes. Incidently that is not always a SEN issue btw..

You mentioned about reports

That again is not just an SEN issue. And I was posting the advantages of giving rewards in public. So again I am still on track with the issue.

And as for it being quite obviously forgiveable should the child have AS or Autism.........why? I dont expect any special treatment for my DS infact I am actually harder and firmer with him than my NT children because I have to be and he has to learn how to behave in society at an acceptable level (fortunately he isnt a bully but sadly he is usually at the receiving end of ridicule but I dont class that as bullying from 6yr olds because they are testing water and learning right or wrong themselves) Why should it be forgivable for SN and not NT?? And we are talking about a small 6yr old boy here who has a need of his own. HOW to behave appropriately and hopefully under guidence he will achieve that.

You are not JUST a bully for no reason. There is always a reason behind difficult behaviour. Time spent now on this will hopefully prevent this lad leading a horrendous future because no one has helped him.

there is no straw clutching here I can assure you.

actually, I was referring to everyone banging on about limited resources and how money shouldn't be spent on stuff for the evil perpetrators... didn't realise I was only limited to responding to certain posts...

oh... and as far as the SEN register.. that's only if it's actually recognised... unless narrow minded people chalk it up to bullying or nasty behaviour as opposed to an actual problem... I assume you knew that as well?

What this?

"Instead of rewarding a child's lack of "misbehaviour", the pupil should be taught that he must simply conform to normal rules of civility and that no reward is given for that, (as "civility" is the least that is expected from each other!) It should be made explicitly clear to pupil and parent that violence is not tolerated."

You haven't said HOW. Apart from some suggestion of having a chat (WTF?)

I take it that your experience of dealing with challenging behaviours is somewhere around zero.

Now unfortunately reward systems are often applied inappropriately in (mainstream) schools because the staff have limited understanding of reinforcement. (But that's a different issue).

That's why I said 'did it work?' If a sticker system is working - hallelujiah, if it isn't then it needs to be revisted.

A child with challenging behaviours should have a behavioural intervention plan. Incidences should be ABC'd and a functional analysis carried out on that behaviour. If the decision is made that part of tackling that behaviour involves stickers then fantastic.

If stickers are being handed out without any understanding then that's not good.

But stickers are not the issue - the issue is the analysis and response to the behaviours.

IME children really don't pick up on ASD etc. Despite having a severely autistic brother ds3 totally failed to spot that the kid he really likes in his class (because 'he's so funny mummy') is very obviously autistic. He honestly has no idea - and this child has his own 1:1 as well which has completely passed ds3 by). He just likes him - but nope, no idea that he has ASD.

Oh my post was to mummie of course

Another newsflash - children who do not have a statement, but that have a special need not severe enough or "deemed" not severe enough, are still put onto the SEN Register - But, I suppose you did not know this, did you?

Eventually.......they are put on the register just as eventually there is a possibility they may get a statement.

Beforehand you have a child that is struggling and possibly classed as uncooperative, bullying, stubborn, immature, aggressive......Parents complaining, school complaining, opinions formed. WELL before any SEN is finally recognised and the child gets help.

THIS child could be one of those children. We dont know do we?

I suppose you are assuming that every punch or kick in the school playground must be a result of a "Special Needs" child? How likely is that? It seems that you are stereotyping or trying to pin all the physical violence that happens as the result of a special needs child - that is very odd?

And, yes, to coff33pot, a child with special needs would be forgiven by his peers for a transgression that would otherwise be deemed unacceptable. That is not to say that the child should not be made to understand the unacceptability of his/her acts..but, just that any victim at the hands of someone who has a "special need" would easily turn the other cheek without hesitation. More compassion is given towards children who have a "real" issue and this, fortunately, or unfortunately, comes naturally.

Also, coff, if you read my numerous posts, you will see that I am all in favour of helping the behaviour that we have been discussing here. It is the type and method of help that I am disputing and the total lack of empathy and consideration that many of these posters care to show the victim of the bully. Surely, after someone has been physically assaulted, a period of time should elapse before stickers and praise are heaped on the bully - why shouldn't the feelings of the victim count - is it the bully who only matters?

Children are smart, there was a bully in my group of friends at school who was just awful and whenever she was called to account just played the my parents are getting divorced card - 9 years they were getting divorced for - still together now. Some kids are just horrible, they have horrible parents and will be horrible adults.
If she have thought there was a real reward not just not a punishment who knows what she might have invented.
The ultimate revenge though was her face as she served me in Tesco's

The child who's father belts him for minor things at home and wallops mum for fun , the child whos mother walked out 3 weeks ago, the child whos beloved grandad died and the dog and mums just got a job so they are shunted off to auntie bessi who they dislike....

They won't have a statement.. , they won't be on an SEN register , they MAY exhibit behaviour at school that is not what they "should " be doing. They may be 6 and very scared, confused or exposed to a normally you don't want kids to grow up accepting.

Nor will the child who was removed from abusive parents & has had 4 foster placements in a year. Or the child who's parents have lost their jobs, the family rely on food parcels, are in massive debt and doesn't know if they will be going home to the same house tonight or if they will be evicted. Or the child who's lone parent is depressed to the point of helplessness and there is never any breakfast in the morning,no clean clothes and no free school meal as that would require a form, so child is scraping by on crisps and yoghurt.

So much happens in childrens lives that no one outside the family knows about.

Effective behaviour work in key stage 1 is way preferable to waiting or doing nothing effective. And by effective I mean effective for that child at that point in time. There is no one size fit all solution, children don't come in one size.

You keep saying 'should be made to understand' mummie

How?

Parts of this thread are amusing as I compare it to the vitriol I got on another thread a few weeks ago for admitting I support smacking in certain instances. (I know this isn't a professional approach or suitable for all children.)

It seems there's a very limited range of "approved" behavioral modification techniques in some quarters & heaven help the child who will/cannot respond to the methods chosen from those very narrow parameters.

In a school environment they can only use professional, preferably evidence based approaches. As a parent I'd be very unhappy if they did it any other way.

I suppose you are assuming that every punch or kick in the school playground must be a result of a "Special Needs" child? How likely is that? It seems that you are stereotyping or trying to pin all the physical violence that happens as the result of a special needs child - that is very odd?

NOPE

What I am and have said is that there IS a reason behind bad behaviour. There is a reason for everything that goes on in life.

Also we do not know if that child is SEN or not either.

If a reward system helps that child to control his temper then so be it.

I give up trying to explain the wall I am banging is to thick and hurting my head.

Saintlyjimjams - I am all for behavioural intervention plans.
My concern here is that any behavioural plan should, undoubtedly, include making amends to the child who has been bullied. That should be planned for in their strategies. And, the point that I keep banging on about is that, in trying to make amends to the child who has been bullied, part of the deal should be that he should not be seen to be "congratulated" for his actions. A pat on the back for beating up little "joey" is what it seems to say, when a bully gets stickers and a treat shortly after the incident. By all means, sort out a plan for the child with anti-social behaviour - but do it compassionately by taking the feelings of all parties into consideration. Most of the posters here are only showing empathy for the bully or the anti-social child...they even further accuse the child who might feel slighted as "jealous" or "envious"..because, after all, the bully has "issues"...therefore he is entitled to whatever it takes to get him on the straight and narrow - even though it stamps all over the consideration and feelings of others - is this right?

Those of you who think that you are looking at both sides of the coin are not being thorough enough in examining the "coins". It seems that those of you who have behaviourally challenged children are so overwhelmed with the day to day struggles of your own child's problems and seem to justify everything by saying that you advocate "whatever it takes" to solve the problems...really, whatever it takes? That seems a very desperate approach. It ought to be that the RIGHT thing is employed to solve the problems, not "whatever it takes" and at all costs to everyone else involved.

Actually, we are quite thorough in examining both sides of the coin. Do you honestly think that our only experience is with children with SNs??

My DH & I have FOUR children. ONE has SNs. We've dealt with bullying situations from the aspect of the victim as well.

Don't assume we cannot see both sides. I can see both sides perfectly well. I just think that your viewpoint is incorrect, limited, and lacking in education to some extent.

Well said Triggles

I am just waiting for someone to say : "Screw the victim!" Right, is that how you all feel?

No decorum at all involved in the bullying incident is required - let's pat "Joey" on the back and give him stickers this week because, as you know, he punched Little Joey in the face. (And We don't like Little Joey, do we?)

"Lacking in education" - is that another attempt by Triggles to "name-call" me. I consider that a personal attack and wish that she would refrain from that type of behaviour on here.

I can't believe that i am on Mumsnet pleading with a bunch of parents to have some consideration for the victim of a bully. Who would have believed it?

I can't believe that i am on Mumsnet pleading with a bunch of parents to have some consideration for the victim of a bully. Who would have believed it?

You are making the mistaken assumption that these people believe a school's purpose is to educate children rather than a way to socialise problem kids using other people's children as collateral damage.

Mummie - you gave obviously never seen a behavioural intervention plan - it's drawn up for an individual child who has challenging behaviour and considers the triggers, the behaviour and what the response (to that child) should be. Other children in the class are irrelevant to the behavioural intervention plan. It's not a vague wishy washy - ooh lets make everything nice again.

A good behavioural intervention plan should include a functional analysis of the behaviour and should consider how to reduce that behaviour. If stickers are what works that will be in there.

It's targeted for a particular child - and should be appropriate for them - not a general 'ooh lets do this if someone does something naughty'.

As I said reinforcements are often used incorrectly in schools (esp mainstream ) but in that case the issue isn't with the reinforcer just the way it's being applied (usually the problem is using what a teacher thinks 'should' be reinforcing rather than what actually is reinforcing for a particular child.

This thread has been useful in helping me to understand why different kinds of rewards are important as an approach to changing the behaviour of some children.

But I'm also horrified at some of the attitudes towards the victims of this behaviour. And they are victims. In any other context where someone was repeated punched hard in face, pushed around several times a day, pushed against walls, scratched, etc., most normal people would be extremely concerned about the victim's welfare.

In this scenario the victim is a young child who is trying to make sense of the world and establish their own sense of right and wrong, and of self worth. If the perpetrator of the violence also happens to be a young child who needs help, this shouldn't negate the victim's suffering.

If we ignore the victim's feeling and emotional well being, we are hardly role modelling the types of behaviour that we want all children to emulate are we?

saintlyjimjames - "other children in the class are irrelevant to the behaviour intervention plan"

Well isn't that the whole point - they shouldn't be?