To think that bullies shouldn't get rewards for not bullying?

[DrSeuss]

So, my son came home with a badly bruised knee with a smallish cut the other day. He said that this happened when he was pushed over the class bully. I immediately contacted the school who were really helpful, questioned the bully, then rang me back. I was told that the boy's mother had been called in after the boy had admitted pushing my son over and that the boy had been placed on report. I was happy with this as an outcome until today, when my son told me that the bully gets a sticker for each of the three daily breaks when he behaves and that on day five, if he has fifteen stickers, he will get to choose an item from the class goody basket.

I'm not suggesting that they impose a stringent punishment on a child of six but is that really the way to go? If I had set it up, I would have given a sticker on a chart for each break with no reward for a week's worth of stickers but a telling off and the mother called in again if any stickers were missed due to bad behaviour. It just seems to me that you ought not to reward a bully for not bullying. The majority of the children in the class don't bully and to me that's normal, not requiring special praise.
Thoughts?
Oh, btw, this is not the first time he has picked on my son and my son is not the only child this boy has bullied. That's not hearsay, two other mothers have told me they have made complaints last half term.

Why wouldn't you reward for bottom wiping? I'm sorry I don't understand the issue with that. If it's taken you 3 years to teach a toilet routine (sit, do, wipe, flush, wash) then yes surely you would reward stages at which a child was stuck?

Mummie - what happened on Sunday was a very narrow miss to you reading in the papers about another Jamie Bulger type incident this week. The 11 year old rape victim will be damaged for life. (link in my previous post).

With regards to my son's attackers, I've made it very clear to the authorities that I want them to have the appropriate professional treatment. ALL the evidence shows that treatment works best when a child is highly motivated (stickers, public praise?)

If they can turn themselves around even at this late stage of their development (9 & 12) then that's a good thing for all of us. They are still CHILDREN & they should be praised for making the massive changes needed for their behavior adults who can work and be productive members of society, not more violent offenders that cost us a fortune to feed in prison.

Their behavior shows how alienated from common decency and societal norms they are - they need teaching explicitly how to engage with society as a matter of urgency.

I do wish bitterly my sons attackers had been noticed at 6, (and given some stickers! ) long before they descended to the depths seen on Sunday.

It shouldn't take really serious incidents to get the authorities to help these kids, yet all too often it does. A school that is enlightened enough to realise this and to get in there quickly and implement proven approaches should be praised and thanked by us all.

Parental egos are really not that important in the grand scheme of things. Being effective is NOT the same as being soft or "indulging" poor behavior.

As adults we have a duty to teach, our young as a collective responsibility, not to indulge in unproductive whining. The school are not indulging this child, they are rising to the challenge, and using evidentially based methods of teaching him critical social skills. Early intervention is cheaper for the taxpayer too.

"Surely the only important thing is that you get the behaviour you want? Who cares how it is achieved?"

Sums it up perfectly. I don't want violent, out of control beasties roaming our streets. I do want children who exhibit early indications of being capable of the suffering inflicted on my son, identified as early as possible and given the professional help to ensure incidents like Sunday's don't happen. I want that behavioral modification to take place as quickly and as efficiently as possible. If rewards are the way science has established is quickest, use them. My priority is that the behavior is stopped.

I'm with jimjams on this, and Starlight, and bochead and lots of others.

my 7 year old gets rewarded for wiping her bottom (or, more accurately, attempting to wipe her bottom)

my 5 year old gets rewarded for trying some of her vegetables without complaining (the without complaining is key).

my 5 year old is perfectly happy whn another child achieves something thye have ben working towards - she might have a twinge of envy, if the 'prize' is somethign coveted, but she is absolutely over the moon that the child has worked hard (for them) and achieved what was set.

my 7 year old (with complex learning difficulties) understands differential rewards, and that what she is workign towards is not the same as what her sister is working towards. quite frankly, any NT child over the age of about 3 is capable of understanding this, so why the fuss?

we are not all the same. we do not find the same things easy/difficult. some people need extra help with bottom wiping, others need extra help to not scribble on books (be that an impulse issue, an ODD issue, or a sensory one), others still need help with not hitting (again, possibly an impulse issue, possibly a need for attention, possibly an interest in the varied responses that can ensue). my 5 year old does not need help with any of the above, but does need help with confidence during school swimming, so she is on a (school) reward system for that - are the other children bothered that she gets a sticker for getting into the pool without crying? do they think they should have one too? nope. they are pleased for her when she is able to achieve her (considerably smaller than theirs, in that lesson) targets, just as she is thrilled for the girl who gets the sticker for sitting still, or the boy who gets the sticker for good phonic work that day - stuff that comes easily to her.

If someone who had wronged me later got praised for not repeating the behaviour I'd think 'thank fuck for that!' and sleep better in my bed.

Yep mummle we have two kids who we reward for not sleeping during school time. It's something they do to avoid work and challenging social situations (like sitting wit other children to eat lunch) and they need to be motivated and encouraged not to sleep and to face the things they find difficult.

Some kids only have 'what's in it for me' to work with. They don't do things just because they should.

For example if you want a child to stay in a lesson, in their seat, for 30minutes and they don't want to what are your choices (I'm on a child that is just oppositional here btw- ODD etc- no reason they can't sit still other than not wanting to)? You can physically hold them into the seat so they realise they HAVE to stay there and you are going to make them. This is an option, but only in specific circumstances and only for a highly trained and very specialist professional. No way is it an option in mainstream. Or, you can incentivise them to stay in their seat. You hope that they then learn that being in a lesson is not actually so bad and really they quite like learning things and they begin to WANT to stay in their lessons for the right reasons. This is an option in mainstream, and frankly the prefered option anyway. But yeah, it means you are rewarding a kid for doing something that they 'should' do.

An ODD child is not going to do what you want/ they need to do just because you explain to them that they should or that doing it is better for them and everybody else. Actually, they're not going to sit down and have that chat with you in the first place if they think you are going to say things they don't want to hear.

Bochead- I'm sorry to hear about your son.
"the appropriate professional treatment". What does it boil down to at the end? I don't believe anyone is disputing that some professional help is needed. What manner of intervention is the point.

DS2 has been coming home with huge bruises and scratches over the last few months. I mentioned it to the teacher but it continued. I mentioned it again and she let slip that the child had some problems. I am NOT going to blame the child for what has happened. The school and parents need to find the right way to support him. DS2 no longer wants to be near this child because he is naughty. I asked him how he would feel if he was naughty and then no-one wanted to be around him. He was sad but decided he would tell the boy how nice he was when he was being good and if he could be like that all the time they could be friends. Let's just say that was a month ago and so far so good. My son was the victim here but even he could see that a bit of praise towards this boy would help the situation. Both of them are nearly 6 by the way.

Surely anyone who has been wronged would want to see the wrong behaviour turned around quickly so it does not happen again.

Coff33pot - Re your posts on page 9,

We are not talking about statemented SEN children here. You have missed the point, the issue is about children whose only issue is that they are bullies and beat up children. This issue is not related to a child who has Aspergers or Autism - that is quite obviously forgivable and a whole other issue. Please, let's not start grasping at straws!

ThisisExtremelyVeryNotGood - re your post on page 9

There is a clear line between not sitting still, not letting someone get a word in edgeways, etc, to clear, intentional bullying. Can you not see that? A push or shove that is accidental is not bullying. A punch in the face...a kick in the shin that is a petulant reaction to something a bully dislikes and that is what a child OUGT not do. If a child does not know that it is wrong to behave in that way - then he OUGHT to be taught that it is unacceptable.

How do you know they are not statemented children with SEN?? Do you have a list of who they all are in your school? I know there are a fair few in our school, but I only personally know 2 of them, 1 is my DS.

It's that old "oh but it's not those children...." but how do you know?? It's not like they wear a sign....

If a child does not know that it is wrong to behave in that way - then he OUGHT to be taught that it is unacceptable.

Mummie

Do you know how hard it is for children to get a Statement?

There are plenty of children, in mainstream education, who have problems with attention, impulse-control and comprehension, resulting in difficult behaviour, whose difficulties, at 6 are not severe enough to get statemented.

You know... most parents don't discuss their child's SEN and statement stuff with all and sundry. We don't. IRL, I've only discussed it with a few close friends, who I know are supportive.

I neither know nor care what other parents think at the school. It's not their business. And I sure as hell don't think they have a right to demand that my son doesn't get stickers as a reward for good behaviour when he struggles so much. I am so glad the children in his class are understanding and supportive.

Oh, and Mummie, as I said up thread, by DS1 was bullied.

my DS1, not by

Fair enough, but Whatmeworries post doesn't directly say that children shouldn't be helped when they are struggling.

Exactly - my points are (i) that there needs to be a limit to the resources thrown at this problem, as the principle point of a school is to educate ALL the kids, not to solve the social problems of a small minority,and (ii) the interests of the victim child must come first,you sort out the antisocial problem child AFTER the innocent victim has been made OK.

I think too many "professionals" lose sight of the latter, and everyone seems to forget resources for all children are limited. Money spent on sorting out the wayward child is by definition taken from the others.

And this extends to carrots and sticks used, and the message you are trying to convey. If the prize of naughtiness is praise and of goodness is its own reward in some far nebulous future then that is a very dangerous message.

I owuld not have a clue in dd2's school who has SEN and who doesn't.

(dd1's school a bit different - they all have statements there!)

in fact, dd2 has been there for nearly two years (preschool and now reception, little movement in children, so same ones as were in her pre-school year), and it was only last week that I found out that there is a little boy there with a full time TA. had no idea before that (and only found out as I queried, at a staff evening, who the member of staff I had never seen before was, and was told 'X's TA' by another mum).

and I would not have known, from the times I have seen this boy, that he had SEN. it is not always possible to tell, so how on earth do you know that this thread is not about a child with SEN/SN?

Whatme -

There is a massive, huge limit to the resources thrown at this problem, already. Massive.

If the prize of naughtiness is praise and of goodness is its own reward in some far nebulous future then that is a very dangerous message.

exactly, silverfrog.

SaintlyJimJams - If you would like to know how I would do it, please refer to, I think, page 2 of this thread where I state how I would deal with a bully. I am sure that I repeated my philosophy on dealing with this matter once again on either page 7 or 8, etc...

Bochead - No one on here has ever said that the anti-social behaviour should not be dealt with in primary school or nursery, etc. In fact, I think they way that I would deal with the problem would probably have better results. The quick fix of bribes/rewards/incentives (whatever term you prefer) may, in a very short term work. To truly get to the issues that create anti-social behaviour, a lot more than behaviour modification is needed. Behaviour modification in terms of positive reinforcement creates, in my opinion, a bad precedent for the child's moral and ethical development and this, ultimately spirals out of control once those structures are no longer in place. What I am an advocate of is a lot of talking to the child, not in scolding way, but in a sympathetic, enquiring way, so that the root of the problem could be discovered. Once the root is discovered, steps to resolve the problem may be considered and put into place. I know this is a very idealistic view, given a school's meagre financial and physical resources...but this is the real way to solve anti-social behaviour. I have seen so many children who had anti-social tendencies who went on to secondary school and were eventually expelled. These children were not statemented children that I am talking about...they were everyday kids who perhaps, had the wrong type of guidance at home, or who, in fact, were over indulged at home and were never taught the meaning of "no". I observed these children having numerous behaviour intervention programs and, yes, reward schemes galore...all of that, but dealing with the deep rooted issues was skimmed over in favour of incentive schemes and these incentive schemes actually made these anti-social children even more smug and cynical. Children who watch as these smirking and cynical children go up to accept their rewards become embittered and, to an extent, cynical themselves, because they know that these kids are not truly reformed and that, in most cases, their offences continue, but go unnoticed because they have become more sly in their attempts...

FFS, is this just deliberately being clueless???!?!!?

Does one have to spell everything out in paragraphs? This thread has gone on for pages about the antisocial kids being positively rewarded (prosocialising i believe it isnow called?) for doing the same things everyone else does as a matter of course. They have also being testifying tothe fact that the victimkids are ofte left to just suck it up

Many people on this thread have opined that the other kids' goodness is its own reward. IMO most adults would struggle with that Zen like concept, never mind 6 year olds! Kids understand the tangible now, not the metaphysical 10 years hence.

Triggles, of course I know who is statemented or not in my school! I know who is on School Action and School Action +, I know what their IEP's are... I make it my business to know the children I interact with. Even before I worked at a school, I knew who the SEN children were, as my child and all the other children and parents knew who they were. In fact, all the children at the school where I work know who the SEN children are too - there is not much that escapes one's notice when you are together for over 6 hours a day, five days a week... children know who is getting special help and why they are...children know who the more able children in the class are and who the less able are...they know what academic "ability" group they are considered to be in... We would all have to be pretty non-observant not to know these facts. That is why children would not be too upset if "Joey", who has very mild aspergers, pushed him over...because they know that it is not without malice or real intent... On the other hand, "Harry", who has his mother working in the school and feels that he can get away with murder, abuses the rules and bullies other children and then gets a reward scheme to "reform" him... This is just the type of indulgence that makes me sick, quite frankly.

Mummle, it was in response to your post at 14.32 which stated that children should not be rewarded for things that they ought to do anyway. That could be extrapolated to pretty much all classroom behaviour and that was my point.

Oh, thank heavens "Whatmeworry" - a sane voice in the crowd, at last!