To think that bullies shouldn't get rewards for not bullying?

[DrSeuss]

So, my son came home with a badly bruised knee with a smallish cut the other day. He said that this happened when he was pushed over the class bully. I immediately contacted the school who were really helpful, questioned the bully, then rang me back. I was told that the boy's mother had been called in after the boy had admitted pushing my son over and that the boy had been placed on report. I was happy with this as an outcome until today, when my son told me that the bully gets a sticker for each of the three daily breaks when he behaves and that on day five, if he has fifteen stickers, he will get to choose an item from the class goody basket.

I'm not suggesting that they impose a stringent punishment on a child of six but is that really the way to go? If I had set it up, I would have given a sticker on a chart for each break with no reward for a week's worth of stickers but a telling off and the mother called in again if any stickers were missed due to bad behaviour. It just seems to me that you ought not to reward a bully for not bullying. The majority of the children in the class don't bully and to me that's normal, not requiring special praise.
Thoughts?
Oh, btw, this is not the first time he has picked on my son and my son is not the only child this boy has bullied. That's not hearsay, two other mothers have told me they have made complaints last half term.

I think strategies like this also make the mistake of assuming that children who bully always have their own issues. Ime, they don't always. Sometimes they just enjoy the feeling of control they get over other people, they like being able to provoke a reaction, they like that their voice gets heard. They do have friends, because other children will look up to them for being able to get what they want amongst their peers.

Ashas already been pointed out, being well behaved doesn't always have rewards that are that great anyway. It will for one or two extra sensible children that will be chosen to have responsibility for a particular job, or who will get to be on the school council or whatever, but that doesn't happen for most children.

Joey btw is made up.

This child has had positive reinforcement for GOOD behaviour NOT bad. When he is given the sticker I suspect it is also mentioned "well done keep it up" He is learning that GOOD behaviour also gets recognition brings positive results

Now before you start the GOOD children do get rewarded. They are not told off for a start, they are chosen to participate in main parts in plays, they are chosen for "special duties" because they can be trusted to carry them out, they are the ones who get their photographs in newspapers when gone on a trip. WHY? because they have earnt these awards and deserve them.

Also I think you will find that once Junior school starts then there are more rewards for the behaved children by way of achievement awards, first in dinner que awards, attendance awards and prizes for writing, pictures and being helpful to your school collegues. This is the next step to help them into maturity. At 6yrs its merely just starting.

Sometimes they just enjoy the feeling of control they get over other people, they like being able to provoke a reaction, they like that their voice gets heard. They do have friends, because other children will look up to them for being able to get what they want amongst their peers.

That in itself IS an issue that needs addressing. Wether SN or NT the child has to be helped to learn that being controlling is not acceptable. Bad behaviour followed by negative consequence ie Time Out and ignored or good behaviour for the day followed by positive reinforcement of his achievment.

One post mentions that the "victim's" reward is "a good education" and asks "is that not enough" - it is too far back for me to figure out who posted it...nevertheless, my response to that is that, in addition to a "good education" and "good prospects" in life...she/he will also have left that school with somewhat less self worth than when she/he began that school and that is a very heavy price to pay. Seeing someone who hurt you get rewarded is NEVER going to be palatable to a 6 year old, 16 year old or to a 60 year old. You can dress it up all you want, but there is no way on earth that one can appreciate that their 'persecutor' is lauded for his/her improved behaviour. Forgiveness is easy for most people - anyone can forgive a transgression, even a violent one...but to expect them to not feel belittled when little Joey is receiving Student of the Year....or Student of the Week..or Grand Sticker Prize Winner is galling.
The children in the class who have NOT been victimised will probably go along and pay lip service which will give the semblance of supporting Little Joey in his temporary endeavours to be "good" and smile when he is praised, but you can be assured that the children at the receiving end of his antics are seething and feeling betrayed. A duty of care to those children is not being served - please do ask a child who has been bullied how they would feel to see their bullies rewarded. No amount of representing the school for any event would ever erase the hurt, humiliation and sense of betrayal that a child would have endured at watching his/her bully being placed on a pedestal. If a long time lapses and a bully truly converts, then, sure, praise him or her - but not the same day, week or month within the incident - this totally negates any consideration for the victim!

It seems that a lot of emphasis is placed on the perpetrator's feelings, dynamics, etc., and no consideration given at all with regard to the feelings of the victims. It is a "slap in the face" to see your bully rewarded so soon after he bullied you - how can that not be clear to any adult??

Whatever has to be done to the bully to get him to behave should be done behind closed doors - if he needs some incentive program to incentivise him to behave, that should not be for any other children to see - but it always is seen by all the children- everybody sees the rewards, because they are usually so special and clearly over the top... I am exasperated..the whole issue is exasperating. "Right" and "Wrong" is so obvious..."Fair" and "Unfair" are too!

This reward scheme to motivate naughty children to behave has been around for years - it is a quick fix, a sticking plaster, which helps the teacher to control the naughty pupil...but it totally ignores the injured party.

Of course, if a child is severely autistic or quite visibly severely special needs - children would understand such a child receiving praise for his efforts - but most bullies do not fall under this category. A lot of bullies are just mean or selfish or power mad..yes, some are from emotionally deprived backgrounds, but these are the exceptions and most children can see the difference in their cases.

'Of course, if a child is severely autistic or quite visibly severely special needs - children would understand such a child receiving praise for his efforts - but most bullies do not fall under this category. A lot of bullies are just mean or selfish or power mad..yes, some are from emotionally deprived backgrounds, but these are the exceptions and most children can see the difference in their cases'

I think there is a problem with the underlying assumptions about nature and nurture here.

Do you really think that bad behaviour simply comes from being mean, selfish or powermad. Do you think this is intrinc to the child, - perhaps due to breeding who's only salvation can be brought about through punishment?

How too are you defining SN? Isn't repeative negative behaviour a SN in itself?

My DD has been bullied, beaten, name called. She is much older though 10yrs. The child in question has had the consequence of walking around clearing rubbish in the school fields during a certain time that her class is enjoying quality chat time, she had the same positive reinforcement in her school for learning over time how to combat the bad feelings. DD is not affected by being upset that her bully is being praised. She is infact over the moon that she is getting better and they have become good friends again. As far as DD is concerned she had her punishment in the first instance. I support this friendship because the girl is trying hard. I also support the school because what happened to DD was recognised and taken seriously.

Should this girl become "pupil of the year" GREAT. Because quite honestly that would show she had made a remarkable effort throughout that year and deserved it. To carry on punishing a child is bullying in itself IMO.......

I do understand it is hard for a parent as all they want to do is protect their child and quite rightly so. But the only picture they have is "thats the kid that hit my child" Its easy to stick. They are not at the school, they are not the teachers and they do not see the progress that a child has or has not made.

A child of 6yrs doesnt deserve the label of bully for the rest of his life.

Of course, if a child is severely autistic or quite visibly severely special needs

Autism is not always visible it comes in many forms..................

Coff33pot- your Dd's bully was seen to be punished - that is the difference. Had your daughter's bully not been assigned to clear rubbish and/or leaves but, instead, selected as pupil of the week for not hurting anyone else that week, I imagine she would have felt vastly difference. The scenario you presented is clearly apples and oranges -nothing to do with the theme of this thread.

I think 'punishing' a child when you know it will not change their behaviour (i.e. sanctions have been tried before with that child and have proved ineffective in shaping their behaviour) is ethically questionable.

Children should not be punished in a certain way that has no relevance to them purely for the benefit of other children.

I agree.

Punishment as a form of behaviour shaping is one thing, but punishment as a form of revenge and satisfaction is something quite different.

Starlight-little toddlers often display unkind behaviour, eg, snatching, biting and even pushing others when they do not get their way. If indulged and bribed to change their behaviour, rather than chastised and taught about what behaviour is expected and why, they grow up to be school aged children who continue that behaviour -these are the non-SN bullies-they are the over indulged, spoiled brats that well brought up children have to confront on a day to day basis.
Would you consider it appropriate to tell a toddler that, if he/she didn't punch Joey anymore that he/she would get a special treat?? Where on earth would a policy like that get you? If a child is bribed when they are young, they will need such material or immediate incentives to behave in the future - this is what becomes ingrained in them...
And, no, I wouldn't consider ALL persistent bad behaves as SN - some of them are children who do not behave unless bribed!

The OP states that the school was helpful, boy in question admitted it, the parent was called and the boy was put on report. And that she was happy with that. It was after she found out about the stickers that she became unhappy.

And no my DD wouldnt see it differently because the issue has still been acknowledged, the school has taken on board that there is an issue and are handling it.

A child of 6yrs is still very young and some more immature than others, still finding their feet in the world, trying to test boundaries both at school and home and if immature might actually struggle to grasp the fact that they have to start learning now rather than just play. They are..........still subject to the odd tantrum and yes hitting happens.

Acting as role models and rewarding good behaviour most people do at home with their children, but I guess its a trip to macdonalds, new mag at end of week or whatever. School cant do this obviously so there are stickers.

My son has to sit in his class watching his peers collect stickers every day for writing neat, sitting still, answering correctly, good team work etc. They then get a lovely certificate given in assembly. He is SN and doesnt attack peers btw. Unfortunately he cant write properly, cant sit still due to sensory issues, cant answer for fear of being noticed and cant work in a team because that deems a crowd to him and he becomes anxious. Now...........possibly I could say that was heartbrakingly unfair for him to see this and not be rewarded too, how it could ruin his self esteem hmmm? No I dont because that is what happens in infant schools and I would be unfairly penalising other childrens EFFORTS.

The 6 year old is making an effort in good behaviour and it deserves positive reinforcement by way of a sticker.

The issue is not really about punishing a child, but of not "celebrating" the bully's efforts so soon after the offending incident and thereby insulting and humiliating the victim. Like I said in my earlier post-whatever it takes to reform the bully can be done, but don't rub the victim's face in it while they are still bruised. That is fair, isn't it -yet this simple consideration is so seldom afforded the victim, as a quick fix is more convenient for the teaching staff.

Yes, the STICKERS - that is the issue, Coff and the entire difference. The child Victimised was barely given the opportunity to regain her "composure" and when she (metaphorically) turned around, there was her bully getting a sticker and being fawned over. Imagine that!

Hang on, if a child with difficulties is given a sticker for behaving well you see it as a bribe, but you want your DD to be given stickers for behaving well which you would see as a reward?

You also say that you think children with behavioural difficulties should be understood and given time and support to work on the causes of their behaviour but then advocate them being publicly pilloried for the benefit of the other children.

There is a school of thought that children should not be given any extrinsic rewards as it reduces their intrinsic motivation. You should perhaps subscribe to that as it is at least a cohesive philosophy.

I just don't think there is a solution that you would be happy with. If the disruptive child spent a lot of time out of class working on their difficulties you would say the other children thought the naughty child was getting all the attention (you know a lot of that type of work for a young child would be play based and look like 'fun', right?). If the child was left in class the whole time and only ineffective sanctions were used you would be upset at them disrupting your child's learning. If they are in class but the staff are using positive behaviour management you say the other children will think it is unfair. Sounds like a bit of a no-win to me.

i know 6 is young so maybe it works at six but when my child was going through school it seemed like the only children bieng praised and given rewards were the ones with problems such as a tendency to bully .This meant lots of quiete ones who did their best never got any recoqnition atall Its been interesting to see how the ones who got the most prizes especially at high school were not the ones who went on to do a levels or were the first to drop out Just because a child doesnt say a lot it doesnt mean they wouldnt like some encouragement as well Thier was a particular boy at primary school known to be a bully overloaded with praise at the leavers ceromony in year six and then expelled from high school im sure he had a lot of praise at 6 or 7as well so i think sometimes it doesnt work i think schools should know the end results of the children they give special fuss to it seemed like bieng no trouble made pupils iiinvisible and it didnt challenge the ones with so called chalenging behavior

I think YABU. While my DS1 isn't a bully, he does have extremely poor impulse control, can get extremely boisterous and quickly gets out of control. He crashes into people (easily construed as pushing) and is extremely difficult to calm back down. He is currently in his 4th year of primary school, and playground behaviour has been an issue since he started. They are only just now managing to get on top of it, with a combination of reward system exactly as mentioned in the OP and other longer term strategies such as teaching him playground games (ongoing for the past two years), doing calm activities at the start of break time so he doesn't career out of the door in a super-hyper state and keeping him out of the line when going in. The stickers are designed to be a short term tactic while the longer term ones are implemented. There are also other tactics in place to deal with his problematic behaviour in the classroom. Given that your information has all come from your son, you have no idea what else is going on with this boy behind the scenes. I highly doubt the sticker reward system is the only tactic the school have implemented WRT his behaviour.

Tbh, I'm quite that you reacted so strongly to a bruise on his knee, DS1 is generally covered in bruises, and if he doesn't come home muddy from the knees down it's a very unusual day

The big question with these various approaches is resource allocation.

Resource is always limited, so is it fairer to allocate 29/30ths of it on the 29 good kids, or do you spend the bulk of it on the one troublesome kid, as these sort of "high touch" approaches demand?

Agree ThisIsExtremelyNotVeryGood

Yep Whatmeworry they should just sit the kid in the Head's office for the next 6 years. Actually some kids might like the Head and wish they could go to the office so they should just exclude the kid. Although some kids might rather be at home so then they might start misbehaving so they can go home too.

Oh bugger it, just cane them. No other kid is going to want that.

Ebd, you are putting words in my mouth when you suggest how I would feel about various scenarios - and, to make matters worse, they are words that I do not wholly subscribe to.
To try to make myself clearer, I will reiterate that I, personally, would take a philosophical approach and try to get to the root of the reason for misbehaviour. If this meant large doses of patience and sympathetic listening and problem solving, I think it would be a worthwhile endeavour. Saying that, part of my proposed resolution would certainly not be to include visible rewards, as I know that this would slight the victim -how insensitive to praise someone so swiftly after their misdemeanors, eg not giving a decent amount of time to pass.

I dare say that withholding stickers, treats and goody bags from someone who has recently been violent as an act of pillory - do you - would anyone?

Further, I would think it very patronising if any child of mine received a sticker because he restrained himself (for a week) and did not hurt someone. The majority of children do not get stickers for simply being non-violent towards each other.

And, no, I do not think i would say that taking a child out to discuss his problems was unfair to the others -that assertion is totally untrue -many children go out for a variety of lessons -it is perfectly ordinary and not viewed as a treat at all.

And, we're not talking about a disruptive child staying in class because the incentive scheme is not employed -we are talking about a bully who targets vulnerable and weaker kids when the coast is clear. Usually these kids are quite sly and behave quite well in front of the teachers, so your assertion that the absence of a reward scheme would lead to classroom mayhem is not very firm.

I hope I clarified any misunderstanding here.

I still can't believe the lack of compassion here for the bullied children and their feelings. Clearly, this is why so much bullying exists in the world.

TBH Whatmeworry, having seen the level of disruption my DS1 can cause in full flow just at home (where there is only his siblings to annoy, and a lot less for him to react to in the first place), I think a little resource to keep him calm and balanced means a lot more resources for the rest of the class than it would if they just let him get on with it.

I'm also really shocked by the assertions up thread that it is alright for child x to suffer at the hands of child y because child x has a stable home environment and will be successful in their education. This assumes a hell of a lot.

Any child who is hit, scratched, pushed around and has their classroom environment disrupted will suffer in some way.

Just because I've worked really hard to help my son manage his emotions and behaviour in response to the "bullying" (for want of a better word) he has received, doesn't make it ok. Hopefully he will be alright, but he's still had his first year of school completely disrupted. And it has stretched my parenting skills to breaking point.

Thankfully his school have been supportive or I don't know what we would have done.

I encourage anything that will help improve behaviour but the OP is definitely not being unreasonable.

Marney, I agree with you about how these children who are placated and indulged with treats for not misbehaving usually land up getting expelled from secondary school. And, before others say it, this expulsion is not, in my opinion, evidence that the children didn't have appropriate support in teir secondary schools - it is, however, evidence that the rewards do not work in the long run - a bribe is a bribe, is a bribe - without a bribe, the whole edifice collapses and behaviour falters. Children are, in fact, failed by this short sighted approach -

So, to sum up, the badly behaved children are not served, in the long term by learning to expect treats in order to conform and the victim must endure all sorts of praise being heaped on their aggressor... It's quite obviously a terrible policy,

Yes, sorry mummle I did put words in your mouth and I apologise for that.

I am going to stop posting because I don't really have anything further to add.

How to effectively support and remediate children who don't easily learn prosocial behaviour, or have barriers in the way of producing prosocial behaviour, is a HUGE issue in education today. Particularly in the setting of a mainstream classroom. I don't think anybody has the answers, especially in this budget strapped age where interventions cannot be paid for. I certainly don't have the answers and I work at the cutting edge of the field.