To leave MumsNet because it's becoming RadFeministNet?

[SigmundaFraudina]

Had enough of their agenda being forced down my throat whether I want it or not. Major recruitment drive going on lately, and serious opression of other posters views. Just gets worse and worse. This was not what I believed MN was supposed to be about.

I'm off.

The problem is that radical feminists get to call themselves feminists and when liberal feminists say, for example, they don't have a problem with porn as an institution (rather than as a practice) they are told that they're not real feminists.

Resulting in massive frustration from liberal feminists and a feeling that you can't air your views.

I have no problem with people having different views to me, but I don't enjoy being told I'm not allowed to choose my own label because of my views.

I think it makes feminism a deeply problematic concept. And an unappealing thought for many women.

S I said before- I'm pretty sure I have only ever seen one radical feminist posting on here. What do people think makes a radical feminist?

I lurk a lot and I have never seen someone who self-identifies as a feminist being accused of not being a 'real feminist'. They might however say "That's not what feminism means to me" which is a different matter altogether. That's owning their own opinions. I see that a lot and it's fair enough.

I think some posters who take an opposing view personally, or who feel defensive and uncomfortable about their own personal choices, will often hit out at an individual or a group that has made them think some uncomfortable thoughts. The discomfort rattles them. They'd rather not have it, so they attack. The mature response might be to say "Okay I need to go away and think about this a bit more. Thanks for challenging my viewpoint and posting those links."

They don't get snarky and take it on to other threads, because that's the immature way of dealing with things, isn't it?

"'On the other hand the Swedes are saying that there has been a big reduction of the number of women in prostitution.'

That's because it's being forced underground where it's not visible."

And slavery's been forced underground as well Sigmund.

This does not mean, however, that slavery, and the mindset that says slavery is OK is not still a bad thing that needs to be exposed and opposed.

yellow, what if my view is that someone who thinks porn is great, isn't a feminist? You claim you've no problem with different views - so why not shrug off this one and just assume I'm an idiot for thinking it?

You're saying radical feminists 'get' to do this stuff, as if there's some kind of external arbiter preventing you from doing the same.

To return to the God analogy, if someone tells me I can't be a rational human being because I believe in God ... well, that's their view. I think I am rational. So I can either justify myself or shrug it off. That's how debates work.

It might be that people feel defensive sternface, or it might just be that people don't like people saying "that's a strange thing for a feminist to think" or "the little prosex happy-clappy feminists".

And yes people have said those things.

Catgirl, SigmundFraudina who started this thread was arguing on the Amsterdam thread that paying for sex shouldn't be criminalised, in other words that it shoudl be legal for men to buy women's bodies. I don't know why you're claiming it didn't happen, it did.

Nyac this a perfect example of what I find frustrating.

I didn't claim it didn't happen. I said:

*I wasn''t refering to posts where the person said "The OP has no right to know what her co-workers do in their spare time, and I know a happy hooker and its ok and / or I think brothels should be legalised"

I am refering to posts where people simply said "The OP has no right to know what her co-workers do in their spare time"

Which some posters decided meant they were supporting the sex industry.*

And from that you deode that I am denying people said brothels should be legalised

Either you are unable or you are unwilling to read and understand what people write. Whichever it is it is deeply frustrating.

Because, Jericho, no-one died and made you queen of the feminists. You don't get to say who is a feminist and who isn't. That is not a view, that is prescriptive.

I have never ever seen a liberal feminist say "I don't think that radical feminists are feminists because xyz."

It gets a bit tiring shrugging the same thing off time and time again, especially when it's often directed in a personal way.

YADBU.

I love the feminist section on MumsNet, it is full of smart women and intelligent debate.

Also, I am bewildered by women who hate feminists. I like Caitlin Morans test on whether you are a feminist: "Got a vagina? Yep. Want to be in charge of it? Yep. You're a feminist!" :D

Get thee to flounders corner!

In reality there are plenty of disagreements within feminism. You only need to look at the 70s/80s Feminist Sex Wars to see that. Andrea Dworkin vs Pat Califia: both feminists, both passionate, and very much at loggerheads over pornography and BDSM. The prostitution debate is also still divided, between those that view it as patriarchy in action (the broad consensus on this board) and those who include the possibility of sex workers having some agency, etc (a perspective that has also been argued by some on MN).

You are correct, there are many strains of Feminism.

The issue is the noisy "MN Feminists" subscribe to a pretty hard line RadFem belief set, and tend to act on MN as a cabal to shove it down peoples throats (you can seldom argue with one without finding a whole lot pitching up to shout you down). And in my experience they have finessed post rudeness to just getting under the post deleted wire.

"i'm making an observation in my opinion that the Feminists, as a group on MN are not very open to discussing things when people dont fall in line with the accepted feminist opinion.. and they have a tendancy to then make those people feel they can no longer post on those threads because they feel bullied and attacked."

Completely disagree with this.

I do wonder if any of this actually gives the feminist section food for thought? I mean if so many people were saying to me that I made them feel uncomfortable or bullied, I would at least consider the point.

Anybody who thinks porn is not degrading and damaging to women as individuals and/or as a gender is not a feminist.

Anybody who thinks the sex industry is not exploitative and damaging to women either individually or as a gender is not a feminist. And this particularly applies to people who think that women become prostitutes because they are highly sexed, or because it's the best way to pay for their degree course in astrophysics or because they like the attention is particularly not a feminist.

Anybody who thinks that women are ever to blame for their own rape or domestic violence is not a feminist.

Colours/Mast.

I wouldn't have a problem with 'that's a strange thing for a feminist to think' though. If someone self-identified as an anti-vivisectionist and supported people's right to sell and use products tested on animals (and maybe even their own rights to do the same) it would be strange and a bit hypocritical wouldn't it?

But the point remains that people should take up these issues on the thread concerned, not hide their inadequate debating skills under a pretence of being 'silenced' or 'bullied' and try to canvas support from others who want to stick the boot in to feminists. It's the equivalent of not having the courage to challenge someone in RL about a remark and going back to your friends to moan about it. Very passive-aggressive behaviour, IMO.

yellowraincoat - I searched for your quotes that you state are real, but I can't find them. Please could you link to where they were said.

And yes radfems do get criticised by other feminists for not being proper feminists, on various fronts.

The view that some perspectives people like to claim as feminist may not be so, is an utterly legitimate discussion, else the term would be meaningless. You can't have a political movement based on nothingness. Can I claim to be a socialist who supports neoliberal economics? Or would that be a bit daft?

Can I just check which woman is in charge of telling other women if they are feminists are not?

Just so I know who to collect my badge from?

That didn't happen then catgirl. Nobody said that by simply saying that the OP was wrong, meant that someone supported the sex industry.

The fact is, getting away from all your convoluted misinterpretations of what went on on that thread, SigmundFraud, does support men's right to buy and sell women, wants it to be legal and is huffing because she met some opposition. Hence her long list of how she thinks rad fems ought to think.

I think plenty of people stick up for themselves on the relevant threads sternface. I believe this is more of a general discussion.

Maybe plenty of people don't believe that porn/stripping etc is abuse. I doubt you'd find a feminist who support what they termed abuse. That seems fairly obvious. The problem is with what some people find abusive.

Again, seeker, anyone can call themselves a feminist. It is a self-identifying label. I could sit here and say "no-one who buys clothes from countries which abuse women is a feminist" or "no-one who watches mindless drivel which shows women in a horrible light is a feminist" but it really isn't my place to do that.

yellowraincoat you ask 'I do wonder if any of this actually gives the feminist section food for thought? '

I don't know. Does it give you food for thought? From what I've read over the past few weeks, you have been a prolific poster on the feminist section. So you'd be one of the people to answer that question.

Of course it's a view. I have a view about what feminism is and isn't. It'd be strange if I didn't.

I don't usually go around saying 'I don't think you're a feminist if you say this, nah nah ne nah nah', because (contrary to what you might think), I don't actually enjoy pissing people off. But that is simply a matter of politeness. It doesn't mean I don't actually have any beliefs about what defines a feminist.

Of course I have a view about what's feminist and what's not. Occasionally I'll even express it. If you feel that's oppressive or prescriptive to you as a person - well, don't listen.

Plenty of people have told me I'm not a feminist. It is upsetting, because I'd like to think I am one. That dosn't mean those people have lost the right to hold an opinion about what feminism is.

Imagine using Pat Califia as an example of a "different" kind of feminist. Pat Califia carved a swastika into a woman's flesh without her consent, she used to support NAMBLA (the North American Man Boy Love Association - yuck) and she isn't a she according to her anymore, she's a he and has been for quite some time.

Seriously, there's a line in feminism and if you're supporting or inflicting harm to women, you've crossed it.

sternface the problem is not that i feel uncomfortable when challenged, the problem is that some self-proclaimed radfems tell me that if I DO/do NOT feel the certain way I am "pathetic" "unsisterly" "selfish"

example: there was a thread sometime ago about some women feeling uncomfortable walking around 'alone' 'in the dark'... and the label was immediately attached "pathetic". well, I was actually raped in the early hours of the morning by strangers (it does happen you know) and I said I am not proud of this, but I do limit my nocturnal walkabouts because i am afraid. nope, i am still "pathetic" because apparently statistically my loving dh or a good friend is more likely to rape me than a stranger in the dark alley... another example is the artificial womb thread, where i, the one who tries to finally bring a healthy baby home (having lost them in mc and preterm), am "wrong" for wishing for art womb because it will bring more power to "the dark side"...

I apologize for bringing other thread examples into this convo, but i hope you can appreciate that when i talk about my personal and very traumatic experiences i get extra twitchy when my feelings are dismissed because of wider ideological party line... and yes, i still bloody do consider myself a feminist for working and fighting hard, getting good edu, making a career, supporting myself and my family from my own financial means and viewing man and women on their merits and not by the dangling/tucked away bits...

still there are a lot more sense on fem board than radical loonies even if i wish they were challenged/argued with as much as the anti-women trolls

Feminism is not a self identifying label. It's a political movement. Can I also say I'm a black rights activist and then also be racist? Cos it's just self identification? That's meaningless