*I can stand when people blaspheme and say Ch*** as if its a swear word*

[Serendipity30]

I can stand when people blaspheme and say Ch* as if its a swear word do people think its cool?? People say they are tolerant of peoples faith but situations like that make me wonder I literally wince when people say it. I refuse to believe I ABU

Alpha

An example of the DVDs that are played at the Alpha course - the best I could find (in erm Another Language) (with subtitles): DVD 1 - not all of it.

The DVDs constitute most of the course, with discussion afterwards if you choose, though you don't have to stay if you don't want to.

In english!

I like laughing.

No really, I do

joins springydaffs in her havingalaff workshop

I'm sorry though Spero you had such a crap experience at Alpha. You can't tar all with the same brush though - Alpha courses vary hugely from church to church. Ones I have been involved with have always been laid back, humorous and involved copious amounts of wine and generally Quite Nice Really.

Alpha courses seem to be for people who want to be christians but can't quite suspend their disbelief. Like a support group for mental gymnastics.

Fair play, proselytize however you want. I do dislike the way it's sold though, it is evangelism pure and simple.

Today a deeply "spiritual" friend has been trying to convince me of the veracity of the Turin Shroud, and also to explain to me why god as described in the old and new testament would not intervene in human life. Apparently, it's that old free will thing. He wants us to figure it out for ourselves, which is surely a great comfort to the people dying in Syria for no reason at all.

Why on earth was cbem's reply to me deleted?

if christians would get on with praying, insisting - legally, if you will - on God's power in a world that hurts so much, instead of having teas and meetings and general holy huddles we might get to see a difference in eg Syria and see that God is who S/He says S/He is ie that his/her heart breaks for and LOVES the world. sorry to shout.

Things to work on in self:

• don't shout and be strident even when people are dying and christians do nothing about it
• have a laugh [don't be dull]

I would beg to differ with your spiritual friend Crunchy, in that I believe God does intervene in life, and has done ultimately in Jesus, so that there is purpose even when things seem purposeless. The situation in Syria is harrowing and horrendous, one more example of people's inhumanity to each other. And yet we see people finding hope and purpose in God, even in the midst of such awful situations. I can't pretend to have wonderful answers though. But if there were beautiful answers all laid out for all to see no one would have any choice in the matter

Not sure why your friend was trying to convince you of the veracity of the Turin Shroud and how that would, in any sense, convince anyone of anything very much at all, but hey!

Springy - yes in full agreement in many ways. I also long to shout, at times, at the church for being so bloody inward focussed and caring more about their roof than some poor people in another country. However, I do see churches, increasingly, looking more outwards and living more like Jesus intended, so I have hope in the system as yet....I don't like religion either, but I do like some churches and organisations and most of all people within them :)

madhairday because I'm spiritually dead, see. She doesn't like that and I think she thinks I do it to annoy.

She's convinced that if she finds something that cannot be explained by science, then I'll suddenly go "Oh wow! Gosh! I was all wrong. Fancy that."

You never know, it might happen.

She's a christian, BTW. There are as many kinds of christianity as there are christians, and it seems to me all of them find the others a little bit wrong.

Probably true, Crunchy We are all, after all, different - would be pretty tedious if we came from the same mould.

I am quite happy to think other christians are wrong on peripheral issues and for them to think I am wrong But the central stuff, the loving your neighbour, the cross, all that...well.

I'm sure your friend is acting out of the goodness of her heart - she just wants you to experience this hope. I may think she is misguided, but am happy to be wrong about that as well :)

The thing about that though, is when you talk about (as I often do) very negative experiences with the religious, the answer is almost always something along the lines of "well, they are not real christians/ that is doctrinally unsound/ god would not like that" or similar.

But of course, they would say the same about everyone else.

There is little agreement. Even the simple "love your neighbour -" well, I know a wonderful RC nun who lives that life as I would interpret it, having moved into the local horror estate so as to be best placed to carry out her work! And then there are those who choose to "love" in a way that can best be described as "hate," for example the Free Presbyterians. (ABOMINATION. PAPISTS. NO. NONONONONONONO. NO.)

I can't think of any point of doctrine that is agreed across the sects of christianity. Yet these are supposed to be central tenets of faith.

I can't think of any point of doctrine that is agreed across the sects of christianity.

There are even some (including CofE vicars) who don't really believe in God

They're generally the best ones. People suffering from existential angst are always a barrel of laughs.

Yes, I can see your point about the same old answers about 'not being true to real Christianity' etc etc. And can understand how frustrating that seems when you cannot see anyone agreeing on what real christianity actually is - I do see what you are saying, and honestly would be with you if it wasn't for having experienced God in my own life.

I do think most agree on the cross and resurrection, on grace and on spreading God's love and looking after the needy. I know that isn't always demonstrated, but ime this is mostly agreed on. The other stuff around it - hell, homosexuality, women, etc etc - well yes, you'll find different opinions. My main stance is that as long as we are actually caring for the poor, as long as we're doing what we say we will do, the other stuff doesn't matter, not in the sense that people should be free to be misogynistic and homophobic, far from it, but in the sense that there is not a central doctrine in such things and people should act according to their faith and their interpretation of Jesus - ie loving people. Far more important than some other stuff imeversoho

I don't know any vicars who don't believe, and I know a looot of vicars But I am equally sure there are some, and that they are nice

I'm thinking of the Sea of Faith type thing - maybe that's passe now.

What's Sea of Faith?

Wiki. 'Its stated aim is to "explore and promote religious faith as a human creation". '. Non-realist theism sort of thing.

Good job you don't live in Ireland!! Swearing is something of a national past time and rarely meant to be offensive, it's usually a means of jazzing up a story!! Not saying that's it's right, just how it is!

Daffs stop being paranoid you daft cah. I didn't even realise you were a Christian - you seemed far too charismatic. so I guess I am ignorant and prejudiced after all.

It's just the ones on the alpha course were sooooo dull. And so humourless.

We didn't have any DVDs sadly, maybe it was all too long ago before they were invented.

I think without faith it is quite useless debating religion with the religious. There is a chasm between us that cannot be crossed.

oh gosh madhair, that was pretty much a sword to the heart! I am precisely that type of christian; think 'other christians' are dimwits who are letting the side down [sub-text: I've got it all right]. squabbling christian, me - like a christian version of grumpy old women. dear, dear me, oh dear me, I am convicted, big time

sorry, forgot to have a laugh for a minute. hang on, just adjusting my spiritual drawers

plus I said oh gosh up there = oh God derivative strains at gnats

oh Spero, I LUB you

daffs

I admit to being so many times. Mrs Judgey Pants of Christianity, me

But I try to be all nice and all tolerant and all.

generally don't succeed

I'm not a Christian but all the things that true Christians advocate is me, you know peace and love and treating people right.
So I watch the news and see what is happening in Africa where people are starving or where HIV is rampant, or in Syria where unarmed civilians are being killed in their hundreds, come on Christians give us an answer.You guys have all the answers.
Where is their God?
And then you moan about minor swear words.
Get your priorities right,

Spot on LBE - but don't hold your breath re wedding invite.

I have probably said this before but whenever I start bleating about how can there possibly be a God who loves us when such awful appalling things keep happening EVERYWHERE, a Christian will usually pipe up with something about free will and how we have to chose to love god.

But the victims of the awful terrible things are very often children who I imagine are not exercising any kind of will - just getting killed, mutilated and abused by adults.

So what is going on? Why hasn't there been another flood? Humanity is generally appalling.

So what is going on? Why hasn't there been another flood?

Because god doesnt exist and anyone who happily hands over their destiny to an imaginary friend needs help.

Here?s how I see it.

The work of a christian (and it is work, make no mistake) is to literally bring God?s rule (?thy will be done?) into our world. It?s a war, we?re an army, and we?ve got a job to do. Hence why I get frustrated with christians fannying around when the world groans in terrible suffering. Unbearable. I don?t know how God deals with it tbh.

The ?work? is prayer at least. Practical too of course. Commitment. A lot of the world?s suffering is the old saw of everyone seeing to themselves really, man?s inhumanity to man and all that. A christian is essentially asked to give their life to serve humanity (smaller or larger), as that is what God has done for the world and what he wants us to do: to get his love and redemption and salvation/healing/deliverance/freedom to the world, through us as vehicles. God so loved the WORLD ? always has, always will. He?s serious about it, totally committed. It?s a serious business. We can do ?good? and we can set our lives on a particular course that is for the greater good, but God has the immense power to change things powerfully, and it?s through us that s/he does it. That?s the plan.

No he won?t step over what has been set in motion ? we are free to choose whether or not to have/utilise his love and power. Most of us on here are parents, we know how we can?t step over our children and take over, even about serious things ? the older they get, the more you know it (the more the temptation is to do it). We know how damaging control is for the human psyche ? or we find that out the hard way (and so do they). We are essentially built for freedom.

We hear of unimaginable suffering, but it hasn?t happened to me, so from that point of view I don?t think I can really speak for humanity, certainly not the humanity that suffers appallingly, in ways I haven?t. Though I have my imagination. I understand that certain suffering (eg children) could have us shaking our fists at God: ?Do something!?; ?Why did you let that happen!? imo God?s love and power is (abundantly!) available in order to apply it. That?s what it?s there for ? it is essentially practical. God is a do-er and imo we need to find out how s/he gets things done and fall in behind.