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Original poster

I didn't say anything to this new Mum, and now I wonder if I should have done...

379 replies

lurcherlover · 19/02/2012 12:51

In Starbucks, a couple came in with their baby (brand new - no more than a couple of weeks old). Dad goes to get coffees, Mum sits down opposite me and starts to make a bottle up. She got a bottle of water out, mixed formula powder in it then proceeded to feed it straight to baby. Obviously therefore the water had been boiled at home, but allowed to cool while they were out. I assumed she didn't realise the bacteria are in the formula, but believed the widely-held myth that it's the water that's dangerous. I nearly said something - I wasn't at all going to be rude, I was going to say something along the lines of "I hope you don't mind me saying, but you'd be better keeping a flask of water straight from the kettle with you, mixing the powder in a bit of that and then topping it up with cooled boiled water so baby can drink it" - but I held off and didn't say anything because I'm a wimp I thought it wasn't my business. But afterwards, I thought, if it had been me and I was doing something (however unwittingly) that might be putting my baby's health at risk, I would want another Mum to tell me so in as non-threatening a way as possible. So I wonder if I should have said something. What do you think?

(Disclaimer: this is in NO WAY intended to be an anti-FF thread - I just wanted to point out to her the safest possible way to formula-feed her baby, not in any way to judge, so please don't think that comes into it)

OP posts:
DialMforMummy · 19/02/2012 20:25

If a stranger came to me and told me how to feed my child, I'd have told them to bugger off, how dare you?
You did well not to tell this woman anything. You have no right or duty to do so.

dribbleface · 19/02/2012 20:27

nursery should be following the new guidelines, we ask for sterile bottles and measured formula, we make up fresh. if parents want to bring in pre prepared then fine but have to note it in contact diary.

topknob · 19/02/2012 20:27

All 5 of mine were fed by using cooled boiled water then adding the formula !

SaggyOldClothCatPuss · 19/02/2012 20:29

I think the theory is flawed actually. To kill bacteria, food needs to be above 70degrees for a certain length of time. Making the bottle with hot water and then cooling it, kind of defeats the object. I can't imagine there are any more or less risks whichever way you make the food. Being made with cold water and then fed straight away, gives bacteria less time to multiply than being made in hot water, then cooled down under the tap, right through the potential temperature danger zone would take longer, giving any living bacteria time to multiply. Warm is better for bacteria than cold. Blood temperature is optimal.

NichyNoo · 19/02/2012 20:34

I've said this again and again on these types of threads but on the continent the rules are to make up with bottled water or cooled boiled water. And this goes for Nutrilon (which is Aptamil) so the company have one set of rules for UK customers and another for customers on the continent. So maybe the woman was French/Belgian/Spanish and was doing it 100% correctly (to her mind)?

MaryZ · 19/02/2012 20:36

This reply has been deleted

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

bbcessex · 19/02/2012 20:44

Another one here who fed two DC with cooled boiled water, mixed with formula when required.

and OP - how do you know that the baby was the mum's first? Could have been that she has several others back home, and this was just a quiet trip out..

I would have been AngryAngryAngry and given you a piece of my (sleep deprived) mind had you have "helpfully" pointed out the error of my ways to me...

tanfastic · 19/02/2012 20:47

I used to do this. I'd have been livid if you'd poked your nose into my business.

handbagCrab · 19/02/2012 20:52

The research I read that mentioned there'd been 50 deaths attributed to formula worldwide in 40 years was about how language could be used to make breastfeeding sound optimal and to make formula sound, well, not very good, using this risk as one of the ones to be an example of the risks of formula feeding. I'll see if I can find it.

I read round loads (although it was all off the interweb) and there are different rules in different countries and different rules from the WHO depending on your scenario.

4madboys · 19/02/2012 20:53

i think they say 70 degrees as its hot enough to kill most bacteria but not so hot that it ruins the nutrients in the formula etc? it was mentioned on another thread once but basically i think the 70deg was found to be the best middle ground between hot enough to kill bugs but not so hot as to damage the nutrition in the formula?

i just mixed the powder with a small amount of hot water and then added previously boiled and cooled water to get it the right temp (both amounts of water measured out beforehand so that its the right amount of liquid)

Beckamaw · 19/02/2012 20:53

Yes, but what about BF guidelines? Which percentage of our nipples are contaminated and should we boil those in Starbucks too?
Confused

AitchTwoOhOneTwo · 19/02/2012 20:55

why would people be so defensive about hearing of best practice? i don't get it. wouldn't you WANT to know?
iirc if two-thirds of the kids who get that bug die of it. there were a group of parents in france and belgium (again iirc) who were utterly devastated that there was no information about the non-sterility of the boxes because they say had they known they would have changed the way they were making up bottles and their babies wouldn't have died. that's why the info was changed, iirc.

AitchTwoOhOneTwo · 19/02/2012 20:57

beckamaw, do you have reason to believe that six per cent of the time your nipples are contaminated with an illness that should your child catch it gives him or her a 60% chance of death? you should wash more.

handbagCrab · 19/02/2012 20:58

This isn't what I read but it quotes the same figures about the risks of bacteria in ff.

www.who.int/foodsafety/publications/micro/en/qa2.pdf

Seems a bit wooly to me tbh.

MrsHeffley · 19/02/2012 20:58

I used to make all mine up for the day,put in fridge then take them out to get to room temp.All 3 dc alive and well.

Can somebody tell me why this is now not ok as I used to make all mine up with boiling water(thus killing any bacteria)surely you only need to kill the bacteria once.

Also I'd read only one baby in Belgium has ever died from ff bacteria,when you consider the millions of bottles made up daily I'm not being funny but the risks are less than miniscule.

TruthSweet · 19/02/2012 21:00

The trouble is short of irradiating the powder you can't make a powder sterile (and no one wants radioactive formula how ever sterile it is!). The contamination can also occur during reconstitution by the parents or during the packaging process (after the formula has been prepared and dried but before it has been put into the boxes). It is only possible to make sterile liquids (as in the ready to feed cartons) because of the way they are packaged.

70C+ water isn't going to kill all the bacteria in the formula (if it is indeed from one of the contaminated batches) but if it kills of some of the bacteria surely that is better than nothing.

The idea is the hot water kills off some of the bacteria (if present), the formula is then cooled to drinking temp and fed to the baby straight away so that (any) bacteria doesn't have a chance to grow. This is the best option for preventing serious health risks - there are other options like preparing the formula as above but storing it in a fridge for less than 24hr (killing off some of the bacteria and limiting the growth of the remainder).

Making up formula with cold/warm water doesn't give you that safety net that you have at least killed off some of the bacteria as E.Sakazakii can grow in temperatures between 8C-47C but grows quickest at 39.4C so will multiple well at a feeding temperature.

But ultimately it is the parents decision if they wish to not use hot water to prepare the formula for their baby so if they decide the risks aren't that great, well it is their baby and not mine. I just wish I had been given the chance to make up formula correctly when DD1 was on it (this was after the new guidelines came in) luckily she was okay but the risks to a neonate (especially one who is ill as she was) are fairly considerable and I would have chosen donor milk or ready to feed formula rather than PIF if I had known what could happen.

MaryZ · 19/02/2012 21:00

This reply has been deleted

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

MrsHeffley · 19/02/2012 21:02

Mary I was fed SMA and raw egg in the 60s.Grin

ChippingInNeedsCoffee · 19/02/2012 21:03

Beckamaw - you have clearly not read the thread, this is not about sterilising the bottles, but killing the bacteria in the formula powder, if you are BF you are not using the powder so this does not affect you.

Saggy - the water at 70 deg has been proven to kill the bacteria in the formula.

MaryZ - it's really not that complicated. Make sure the bottles are clean, use water at 70deg, cool (either in a pot or by using less water to mix the formula then topping up with cold water). That list of 400 instructions is just barking. You clean or sterilise the bottles to remove 'food' bacteria (from the milk) not regular 'around the house' germs and you use water at 70 deg to kill the bacteria in the formula. The rest is all a bit over the top if you ask me :)

DialMforMummy · 19/02/2012 21:04

We get defensive because some of us KNOW the guidelines (we can read) and yet we choose to do things differently. And we don't need holier than thou goodie two shoes to tell what is best.

OhDoAdmitMrsDeVere · 19/02/2012 21:06

We used to make it up in a big sterilized jug and pour into the bottles ready for the day.

For DCs 1&2 they were over 6mths when they had FF but for poor DC3 that meant from 8 weeks onwards.

If I had known the new guidelines I would have followed them but its just how we did it then. I would have gone bazonkers though. DC3 took an ounce or so every hour. Thats a hell of a lot of bottles.

Mind you before he got to us his b.mum used to wrap a bottle in a foil and lug it about all day (and she was under 24 hr supervision!).

AitchTwoOhOneTwo · 19/02/2012 21:06

'holier than thou goodie two shoes'? what age are you? Shock

if you do know and choose to do differently, then you would also know that the person is speaking from a good place and with a good heart, and you should be able to handle that politely, i'd have thought. if you didn't know, you might very well be relieved to have the information.

blackoutthesun · 19/02/2012 21:07

well op i'm glad you didn't say anything

when dd was 10 weeks (ish) some lovely Hmm lady made a big song and dance about how i was making bottles, the same was as the lady in your op.

dd was on sma staydown for reflux and you have to make it with chilled water.

she went on her way with her head in her arse Grin

DialMforMummy · 19/02/2012 21:10

Well I disagree to strangers telling how I feed my child. If it makes me an old fashioned bitch, well I can live with that!

AitchTwoOhOneTwo · 19/02/2012 21:10

i presume that the scientists who researched best practice on this matter looked into it a little more deeply than 'well does maryz know anyone who's died of this'?
i never felt it a particular hardship to make the bottles as and when, either using a mix of boiled and cooled and boiled, or using the microwave to heat the water. checking with a thermometer once gave you either the correct amounts of water or the correct timings. and sometimes i just risked it for a trisket, like everyone else. but i did so in the knowledge of what i was risking.