Does any one actually know kids like this?

[westcoastnortherner]

Yes, Yes I know it's a Daily Mail article, but are there really that many kids like this out there?!

www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2101292/They-wear-nappies-drink-cola--dont-know-open-book-One-teachers-terrifying-insight-5-year-olds-failed-parents.html#comments

This whole thread is desperately sad, and I don't think that this is an attack on class or wealth.
I don't know of children in this situation in my DC's school, I do know of extended family members whose DC still slept in a cot, wore a nappy and couldn't use a knife and fork at Reception age. NOT from a council estate, from a "nice" neighbourhood.
Oh and my eldest has one filling (had it aged 4), apparently those packs of sultanas are buggers when children have weak enamel. He'd only ever drank milk/water/dliuted fruit juice and rarely had sweets.
If a teacher came round to my house she'd see lots of lego etc but very few books downstairs, all the books are upstairs, the DC call it their library.

I do not doubt that there are children living awful lives and that some parents are negligent/ill educated, but some of the markers are a bit shite and I really do not think that bad parenting is the prevail of those living in "sink estates". The woman most likely to turn up pissed at school collection was the richest (and I mean v wealthy) when I was last doing school pick ups.

Bad/ill informed parenting can be anywhere.

I have visited families at home this week to find toilet trained children (by the school) put back in nappies beacuse its half term were i am,the parents find it easier. The same goes with giving school age children bottles, less mess.

The teacher can confidently say that it is not SN when they are managing to train the children.

This isn't about the parents not being parented, the parents are offered courses and after all they eat with cutlery and use the toilet.

This is the daily mail so I would assume it has been exaggerated.

I did know families who had very sparse homes. They were basically living in poverty, on low wages &benefits. The children were well cared for and happy, but they had no books, except for the Argos catalogue. They did try to read the Argos catalogue and were interested.

Life had obviously been hard on their mum, she had very bad teeth - I think the cost of going to the dentist can be prohibitive and so she had got out of the habit of going for a long time. Hard life.

I can't imagine a child having to be put down by the teacher for a nap in the afternoon because they've been up since the early hours playing on computer games. I mean, really?? In isolated cases, possibly. But I can't believe this is common. I don't routinely bump into children with tooth decay either.

I have a DS who has SN, couldn't do shoelaces, ties or buttons with any confidence or accuracy until he was in double figures. Couldn't read properly when he was 7, still can't co-ordinate knife and fork with any real accuracy.
Has sensory issues, clothing issues and a whole host of interesting little quirks that have impacted negatively on his education in school.
I've been a teacher for three decades, up and down the country in schools with very different intakes.

'Why are so many people so keen not to believe these children exist? I haven't met any but have no reason to doubt those who have. Why the defensiveness? What motive do people have to lie about levels of neglect and poverty (people on here, not the DM)?'

I have no idea hancat, but it happens a lot. The denial and the personalisation of the arguments to try and refute them.

Btw, my post wasn't intended to be inflammatory! I just look at DM articles with a certain amount of

The bit that makes me feel sick is how the DM is actually helping to cover up the very real problems that some children have, by blinding people with their shitty journalism.
I've seen children (through working with 2-19yr olds in the NHS) with all of the problems listed in the article, although rarely fitting all, or even most, of the DM's description. As others have already pointed out, some of these children are well off, some are poor, some have special needs, some have very limited parenting...by pulling this all together in that rubbish article, the DM have successfully shifted attention from the actual problem, and diverted their readers (and tried to make MNetters!) to issues of stereotype.
Poor children

Shocking isn't it. Heart breaking. I'm quite sure that when I started school at 5, in 1965, the teacher would have had sharp words with any parent whose child started school in that state, would have questioned if the child was "normal", would have have set some standards. The school secretary and dinner ladies would probably have gossiped and parents wouldn't have liked that - they would have ensured it didn't happen rather than complain about it. Something would have been said and the problem would have been dealt with. Nobody would have run to the newspapers for a few bob and nobody would have been disciplined for saying it as it was and getting a family some help.

Do you think it's a bit like those that deny the extent of DV and rape?
Because of course the figures are exaggerated, they are over-sensationalised, that they don't know anyone who lives like that so it must all be hysteria and lies?

Asking what they hope for from school and what their worries are, I?m met with blank stares.

When I've asked my DC's teachers to explain how and what they are actually teaching my children, even in GCSE years, I have frequently been met with blank stares.

Blank stares are a sign of more than ignorance. They can be an indicator of surprise that someone asked the question.

I teach secondary in a deprived area- and this year and last, it has really hit home to me how far things have deteriorated. I have many Yr 7 pupils who cannot tell the time on a clock, some who cannot fasten up their own school tie, and a number who cannot tell me the months of the year in order. I had a handful who didn't know their address and 2 who did not know their date of birth. None of them have SN.

More sadly, I discovered recently that some pupils have never tried a cup of tea, been to the beach (our city is very close to one) or been to any kind of restaurant. It is sad.

I can believe the DM article although I think the part about the child trying to open the book by its spine is exagerrated - even if you'd never seena book, it would take you 0.01 seconds to work out, I'm sure.

My son is 5 and still in nappies. We have been waiting and waiting for referrals and finally got one next month, it's not through lack of trying and my 3 year old DD has been dry day and night for 18 months. He does have other issues which are being dealt with but on the other hand has the reading age of a 9 year old

And I had to have intravenous a/bs when pregnant at about 18-20 weeks and it had a disastrous affect on that child's teeth, some of which had to be extracted under ga before they were 5. It wasn't poor diet, it wasn't neglect, it was due to medical intervention that probably saved their life and mine. Nevertheless the lecture I got from the paediatric nurse after the operation was unbelievable.

But are these parents flagged up to SS?

Pam-children who live these lives are quite isolated, you won't "bump into them" until they are old enough to take themselves wandering. There are areas of the country where you will see under 10's out until all hours. If the parents stay awake of a night it suits them that the children do, that way they get to sleep of a day, even when the children are off school.

People who share the same life styles and values flock together.

It annoys me the way that the guests on Jeremy Kyle are criticised on MN for having bad teeth, as though it is their fault. They are what these children grow into (and worse) then become parents themselves.

75 per cent of children in the pollock area of Glasgow have tooth decay or extractions before they start school.

Over sixty percent of children in areas of severe deprivation have dental disease by age three.

That's actual nhs and Scottish government stats. That's why they've put so. Uh money into improving it.

Pam-they are and interventions are used. The interventions are not always accepted,though.

I was given a bottle until age 6 over twenty years ago. It was quite common and still is.

My brother had tooth decay. Not because of bottle, because of soya milk.

In plenty of cultures it is seen as desirable to eat with hands.

My dd did toilet train herself at 3, with minimal encouragement.

My dds have speech delay. Guess they must be neglected.

3 kids in our reception class needed to nap daily (this is being tailed off over this middle term) - they have no set bedtime - but do not, at that age, stay up playing computer games - they watch tv and do not go to bed.

I also had to say something to our staff member responsible for child protection the other day as 2 siblings (yr 3 and 4) were re-enacting scenes from saw4 - luckily without the weapons of torture! we just get told - write it in "the book" and we will have a word again....

'In plenty of cultures it is seen as desirable to eat with hands. '

Agreed, and if you know anyone who does, there are rules and co-ordination skills involved, and table manners. Not just grab and cram.
You are disrespecting a whole range of people by drawing that comparison.

DS goes to nursery in the "bad" side of town (which is considered deprived anyway) and they do things there like brushing teeth twice a day because it is the only time a lot of the children who go there will ever have their teeth brushed. They do a lot of life skill type stuff like road safety etc, not just because it's nice to do but because some of them will never get introduced to it by their families. They have a huge stock of spare clothes because many don't get sent with them. Despite this I don't think any of the parents don't care or don't love their children, just perhaps are stuggling with life and support etc.

Its not just families from deprived areas though, I know a well off professional couple who fed their children on yogurts almost exclusively because it was easy, and put them down for "naps" (wide awake but penned in) for hours a day so they could keep the house imaculate. No reading at home etc.

And to a lesser extent I know a lot of reasonable well off and educated professional people who are unashamed to not allow toys in any but designated rooms.

We had neglected children in our primary in the 70's - children who smelled, who looked neglected, who were often picked on by the very person who should have been protecting them - the teacher! - it's not a new thing but in the 70's we accepted it. Poverty was normal.

Our school where many many kids have trouble eating with a knife and fork, has precisely NO kids of different culture - the kids are very "white middle class".... I think we had our first free school meals applied for this year!

I can honestly say that I am seeing more children each year with serious behaviour problems in school. Some children literally leave school and are sat in front of a tv until they fall asleep at 11 or 12 at night.