Does any one actually know kids like this?

[westcoastnortherner]

Yes, Yes I know it's a Daily Mail article, but are there really that many kids like this out there?!

www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2101292/They-wear-nappies-drink-cola--dont-know-open-book-One-teachers-terrifying-insight-5-year-olds-failed-parents.html#comments

DS1 is almost 6 and has an irritable bladder. We did get medication (private referral) but we were told that he couldn't get referred on the NHS until he was seven.

Before he had the medication he was wetting himself several times a day. Would have been so much easier to put pull ups on him, esp if I didn't have easy access to a washing machine. So easy to judge on this .

Pull ups are v expensive (esp now size 6 nappies too small) 30p a go, and thats on special offer and I find it hard to believe that anyone would use unless their child was really struggling to stay dry, plus I am very disappointed in the nhs that he wouldn't be treated until he was 7. My GP (who I know personally) really did try with an nhs referral.

I have come across some of these - one kid in nappies, one with rotten teeth, one with no socks in winter. But the whole thing reads like the most extreme examples all strung together into one story, like Hotel Babylon!

Both my dc were about 4 when they were fully potty trained. I would try for a couple of weeks then if nothing was happening I put them back in nappies for a couple of weeks and we tried again. They both just seem to struggle with their bladders and now at 5 and 7 neither are night trained (not for want of trying) and are seeing the nurse at enurisis clinic but it is slow progress. I have tried and stressed over it and resent the idea that I am a lazy parent in other people's eyes!

couple of points

class has no bounds within this subject,estate/nice area, all these findings go on regardless of postcode

probably a flaming coming on but some say the child in some cases is very loved but how can a child be covered in nits,sleeping under a curtain,(these are examples given on the thread) say their really loved by parents,dosent sound much like love putting a child through that and not covering the very basic needs

some kids just dont even get a squint at a normal life,destined to a life of total misery

does anybody have any suggestions how this lack of basic expectations could be helped,curious really

Not just an issue of deprivation, if the report it to be believes, this is increasingly seen amongst families who certainly can't be described as such. I know two families, middle income and well off and both their 2nd children were assessed as failing to thrive as youngsters re their milestones and referred, yet the older child in each case had received a lot of input because meeting one child's needs between the two of them was a lot easier. In one couple's case, they used to almost do shifts, to fit in work and time with dc1 but when dc2 came along it was impossible to maintain. The dcs were certainly fed and clean but delayed in walking/talking/toilet training/had poor social skills and required intensive input from school.

In both cases the parents worked incredibly long hours, the children were in childcare from 7am/8am-nearly 6pm x 5, both mothers returned to work after very short maternity leaves and imo the dcs wanted for nothing materially but didn't have their parents' time. Having been given a programme to follow, one blamed nursery and hired a nanny and the other gave it to their maid. With the latter there is the assumption that the maid/school will attend to their now 4yr old who wears nappies (not in school but has accidents) and has milk in a bottle morning and night. When I mentioned it (the child helped themselves to my baby's bottle) mum said dc2 would grow out of it/they don't correct dc2 much as she doesn't want to crush their spirit/school can deal with it, we pay them enough.

thekidsrule more input from HVs? up until children start school maybe? I don't know how workable that is, it's probably not, but it's all I can think of!

But I also wondered if there was a move to infantalise our children for longer, especially with second or subsequent children? Am not sure I am going to explain it very well, but with dc1 there was almost a rush to see how quickly they would walk/talk etc but with subsequent dc I've thought 'ah bless, let me enjoy it whilst it lasts' which might meet my needs but not meet theirs and as a result not pushed them as much. Plus there is also the more laid back factor once you know what you are doing.

A case in point might be my dcs classes at reception level. Dc1 was one of only a few who was not a second/subsequent sibling in that class and over a third were assessed in the first term as having low level speaking and listening skills and social skills and requiring help to catch up. In dc2's reception class where subsequent/2nd siblings make up a much smaller number, those requiring this kind of help are a small handful.

From the article: We are trained to teach the four and five-year-olds through play, but the sad truth is that many of our children just don?t know how to play. They have never been exposed to imaginary games or make-believe play

One of the many Nurture Groups at my DD's school exists specifically for this purpose.

I am interested to know what a 4 year old is expected to be able to do, independently, when they start school?

but the DM refuses to admit how a majority of parents were total shite 30/40 years ago - smoking in pregnancy, no seat belts let alone car seats, limited hygienic facilities

All that was NOT because the parent was shit! It was because they didn't know any better!

Little miss - at our place we'd hope they could all zip up their own coat, manage their own toileting (this is top of the list). Also good if they can recognise their own name. There are other things I have forgotten but these spring to mind first! :o

Littlemiss- walk holding a parents hand or if really needed with reins on. Drink from a cup. Eat independantly,eat actual food and not just biscuits. At least understand and start to react to their bodies needing to toilet. Sit still and listen, if only for a short time. Not to scream and throw things because they are asked to put something away. Have some bounderies and temper control. The list could goon.

How to prevent it, everyone knowing and using the CP route on the first child to stop it in subsequent siblings. HV's will continue to visit a family until school age, if needed but usually there has been interventions put in place. Stop under staffing Children and Family services, so that these issues can be addressed and acted on. Ditto with funding. Keep Children's Centres open.

"but the DM refuses to admit how a majority of parents were total shite 30/40 years ago - smoking in pregnancy, no seat belts let alone car seats, limited hygienic facilities"

Parents may have not valued educationand did not take into account emotional needs but they did not deliberately parent (or not parent) in a way that would disadvantage their children to the extent that you now see.

Children used to suffer from "cultural deprivation" because of ignorance or poverty, now it is through a lifestyle choice and not meeting the childs basic needs.

A sad read but eye-opening although I certainly have come across this to some extent but hadn't realised how serious it was.

There are people posting saying " Yes but my DC has this or that and it is a medical probelm or SN" That's not what the article is saying. It's kids with all or MANY of these things. Kids who aren't toilet trained AND can't read AND wear dirty clothes AND have dental problems AND whose parents don't interact with them. IT is NOT "judgey" - it's caring and responsible and FFS someone has to look out for them of their parents aren't.

All these parents think they have an absolute right to treat their kids how they want and will resist any "intereference" yet we also hear, here on MN as well as everywhere else, from, (not the same), people who have suffered at the hands of their own parents.

Noparent (or a rare one) gets it all right, but these parents don't get any of it right. Hygeine, Health, Diet, Play, Stimulation, routine or basic needs.

These parents do exsist and sadly so do their children.

Birdsgottafly - you are right and it's good to hear it said that we don't get it right all the time. And probably all of us can learn. As you said though - these parents don't get any of it right for whatever reason - and don't think that anyone has any business getting involved

Birds - some children with SN's, diagnosed or undiagnosed, will not catch up to a nromal development level until they are much older - especially those diagnosed at any point with GDD. My DD had GDD, she was unable to put her own socks on until she was 8yo. Despite being made to try to do it twice a day EVERY day since she was 2 1/2yo. She learnt to tie her shoelaces when she was 11yo - I was so proud of her, after YEARS of OT and physio, and me teachng her at home, that she could do it that I posted a thread in the SN area on MN! She is now almost 14yo, is chosing her options - and I have been told that if she works hard, and continues to make progress at the rate she currently is, then she should be able to scrape 'C's in her non-core subjects, and 'D's in her core subject.

That's NOT 'lack of effort' or 'laziness' on my part - it is just the nature of GDD. It affects ALL areas of learning - GDD stands for GLOBAL DEVELOPMENT DELAY. Which means that the child is delayed in acheiveing milestones in ALL areas. Including toiletting. DD was not 'clean' until she was 8yo, and she wasn't 'dry' during the day until 9yo, and at night until 12yo. Does that make me a bad parent? NO. She was on the waiting list forthe enuresis clinic from the age of 4yo until she was 11yo - at which point, she was the next person on the list, and I got a phonecall to tell me that my PCT was CLOSING the enuresis service, and wouldn't pay for anyone to go 'out-of-area', as it wasn't an 'essential' service. There is still no enuresis clinic in my PCT, which covers a massive area, also covering two very deprived areas, one of which is in the 10 most deprived areas in the UK. So NO-ONE here can get any help with enuresis/ encoparesis in this area, if they don't have the cold, hard cash to go private.

I DO admit, though, that there ARE parents out there like this. My mother for one.

And my dc DO have books, and toys bloody everywhere. DS3's favourite song right now is 'this little piggy', which dissolves him into a mass of giggly, gorgeous babyness!

My DD would have met nearly ALL those criteria in reception. But it didn't help that her teacher refused to accept the NHS's diagnosis of Dyspraxia and GDD, and blamed me because I was a 'teen mother'. She also refused to accept the Maudsley's diagnosis of Autism too. . AND then she sat down with DD and me at parent's evening and told me that my DD was "Just too stupid to learn to read".

I removed her from the school, and put her in one that was OFF the estate I was living on at the time, that had a much better track record for helping dc with SN.

I see what you are saying about someone's dc meeting ALL the criteria - but there WILL be cases where the dc meets ALL the criteria for being neglected, yet it may be due to an as-yet undiagnosed SN.

It won't be like that in all cases, I can PERSONALLY attest to that - when you get to 17yo without EVER having owned a toothbrush, or sheets for your bed, as I did, you can safely say that it DOES happen. BUT there is a codicil that some SN's won't have been diagnosed by reception age, and a LOT of specific therapy is getting harder and harder to access through the NHS.

NO enuresis/encoparesis clinic. A 4 year waiting list for SALT. A 2 year waiting list for Physiotherapy. A 2 1/2 years waiting list for Occupational Therapy. If you don't have the money to go private in some areas, then there is just NO hope of getting your dc the help they need WHEN they need it!

Well there has been some very interesting comments, I know the thing that got me is that I feel I have to try to be a better parent, my kids are doing well in most areas, but I have to concentrate on using a knife and getting them to tie shoes

Some of the comments here make me wonder where the heck these 'teachers' come from...

kids not toilet trained well some of that could be down to teh fact they are statrting them younger and younger .Ds3 was just 4 when started full time school in recpetion , ok he had recognised sn so accidents were undertandable but I did not half feel judged though by other parents that they may have blamed me for ds s[ecial needs ignoring the fact I have 3 other dc and i spent the ages from 14 months to 4 begging for hep .

One child in DDs class was still in nappies when he joined reception. He has no SNs, but when I met him I'm afraid I assumed he did. He had lots of 'problems' all of which were caused by his parents. He barely knew his name, his behaviour was terrible, his speech awful. Tea for him was older sibling going to the chippy, buying a large chips and putting it on the floor for him to share (with 6 siblings, mum and dad got their own portions) . He couldn't even sit at a table in school - he used to get 1-1 on the carpet.

3 yrs on an he still has some issues, but these are being addressed, mainly by the school, but also with SS involvement. However, I was distressed to see he now has a younger sister at the school, with exactly the same problems. DD really likes this lad now, talks about him a lot, but she was actually scared of him in reception - it is thanks to the teachers that he even has friends. Such a simple need, but so neglected.

Of course there are kids like this. Sometimes down to parents not caring or issues such as mh, sometimes ignorance.

For example, I always remember a parent on mn posting for help asking what to say to her young dc as she felt silly talking to a child who couldn't talk back. She loved and cared for her child, but if she hadn't been willing to get advice and help. her child could easily have speech delay.

Children who are severely neglected can appear as if they have sn and if not given enough help early enough and left with neglectful family can develop a permanent sn because of neglect.

My kids still cant zip up their coats and they are 5 and 7. Dd at 5 still struggles with buttons and her tights too. She certainly couldn't dress herself in shirt tie pinafore tights and jumper at age 4. She was fully toilet trained, knew most letters and was a whizz at maths when she started school. Ds has rotten teeth too due to hypoplasia of the enamel, does this mean I'm a shit parent? And yes I only allowed 1 small toy box downstairs as otherwise I would have broken my bloody neck on toys every time I turned around!