To think it is about time to stop being a Christian country.

[ShagOBite]

On the council prayers debate, lots of people have said "but we're a Christian country". Why are we? Should we be? How do we go about changing this? It seems so inappropriate and unnecessary in this day and age.

I think that there will be a large number of people who would put themselves down as CofE on forms just because they were christened. My DM is adamant that I am, whereas I'm actually atheist. Just because she had me christened when I was a month old doesn't mean that I am a member of the church and have an imaginary friend believe in God.

She has never given up hope that she will be able to convert me and says that I may not go to church but I do have Christian beliefs. Um, no. Just because I do something nice for somebody doesn't mean I'm Christian. I'm doing it because I want to, not so that I can get into Heaven.

I think a lot of people mistake 'Christian values' for human values. I don't murder people, not because it is a Christian rule but because it is wrong. People believe that morals come from religion. In fact there is evidence to suggest that 'morals' or reciprocal altruism is an evolutionary adaptation. It is there to make sure the herd/group/mob lives through the hard times. Religions have codified some of this but it is not a coincidence that a lot of religions share the same rules. Don't murder, don't steal, be nice to people, don't eat food that gets worms/goes off in the desert.

Plenty of countries have no state religion, they seem to do OK. Also, there is always hysteria when countries look like they are going to adopt a Muslim legal framework. Why is their flying spaghetti monster any less capable of running a country than ours?

I love these lines from Tim Minchin's White Wine in the Sun - sums up my view:

"I don't believe just 'cos ideas are tenacious it means they are worthy
I'm ambivalent to churches
Some of the hymns that they sing have nice chords
Though the lyrics are dodgy

And yes I have all of the usual objections to miseducation
Of children forced into a cult institution and taught to externalise blame
And to feel ashamed and to judge things as plain right or wrong
But I quite like the songs"

The fact that we live in a Christian country means that our government pay for schools that can refuse to consider offering a place to my children because they happen to have been born to an atheist.

I support the idea of a secular state where everyone has the freedom to pursue their religious beliefs (as long as they do not conflict with the law) but where children aren't discriminated against on the basis of parental lack of belief.

The current faith schools position is utterly unsupportable MothershipG is quite right. It is actually outrageously discriminatory that schools that are largely state funded can prioritise families professing to be of a particular faith. Even Italy which is a much more religious country than this has secular state schools. The system is widely abused - all the people I know bagging places at the local Catholic school aren't really Catholic they are just pretending to be. I don't condemn for this they have been put in a crazy position.

actually, having seen that the seperation of church and state and the total lack of religion in schools has led to the US becoming fundamentalist Christian I'm all for boring hymns and religious assemblies in school. Cos it puts [people off religion

Not sure it led to the US being overly religious.

I reckon its a great theory
Hours of assemblies sat on my bum and having to sing awful hymns while the recorder section murdered the tune then the head droning on put me right off.

Haven't read the whole thread, so I'm probably repeating others (unless it's gone off at a serious tangent - again).

I wonder if the term 'Christian country' means different things to different people. For some it means the people in the country are (practising) Christians. For others, it means that the prevailing culture of the country is the result of centuries of influence from Christian churches. I'm in the second group, so IMO even if the population became completely secular/agnostic/atheist, it is impossible for the UK to stop being a Christian country. It's embedded in our language, our laws, and our identity. Because just as a person is the sum of their experiences, so is a country.

MrsTP. Was unable to find your link re. prayer in schools.

Regardless, separation of chuch and state is no guarantee of freedom. I think that this is one of the reasons that non religious people here ascribe to religion in the census. Of countries where religion and state are seperate, they are new countries or countries where revolutions happened. And as I have said before, in those countries freedom of belief are not protected or upheld the way they are in the uk.

Agree, KalSkirata. If you weaken the CofE then there will be more space for the fundamentalists to occupy, whether Christian right-wing evangelicals, or others with extreme views. Yes we might get wishy-washy anything-goes secularism, but let's face it, fundamentalists are very good on occupying as much of the religious ground as they possibly can, given half a chance, because they work relentlessly at it.

"actually, having seen that the seperation of church and state and the total lack of religion in schools has led to the US becoming fundamentalist"

I disagree with you Popcorn. Here where state and religion are combined, we have the confidence of belief alongside the belief of confidence in the individual.

I disagree with much of our govt. None of it has to do with religion, gender, race, sexuality or reproductive rights. I think we are (if not perfect) totally on the right track. In terms of tolerance we are ok.

There are many things I want to change on a legistlative level, but they have more to do with change of everyday practicalities than change of thought or belief.

The census thing I find interesting -- particularly as the difference between the England/Wales and Scotland censuses has shown how many people act.

One had ticky boxes and one had fill-in-the-blank. The one with ticky boxes showed a strong majority for Christians while the write in one had a lot more 'None's and people putting a specific branch of faiths. I prefer write-ins myself as it gives a clearer more thought out answers, but ticky boxes are easier to categorize and/or make people say what it wanted.

I disagree separation of church and state has made American fundamental though, as an American myself. Church still finds it's ways into most schools there -- not as openly as here, but hymns are common in any American state school choir and Christianity spoken about as norm. I think American fundamentalism comes more from the state education of history which puts a strong focus on America being the best/the closest to perfect and American history being taught over and over with little outside input. Combined with a history of manifest destiny that is still taught as being true and it can come across as loyalty to country is paramount and linked up with loyalty to a faith. It's gotten all intermingled in some very loud parts of the States.

Dione I found the link again. Here it is. As I said before, Canada has no official state religion and I don't think, "freedom of belief are not protected or upheld the way they are in the uk".

When ever I hear the UK being described as a Christian country with long Christian traditions, I'm left wondering in what way do our Christian heads of state / PMs ( who I guess we've had in power for well over a thousand years ) reflect the teachings of Christ ?

Not very much from what I can see.

I just don't see our history, being led by Christians, as being particularly 'Christian' or beneficial. It certainly hasn't curtailed any wars, we still live with poverty ( including many children ) , money has always been at the heart of power and decision making, it just goes on and on.

What are these exclusive Christian traditions we've been living by ? Sunday tea with the vicar ?

How have we benefited from being led by Christians ? Because I look at the likes of Blair, or Bush and I don't see their actions as being in line with the teachings of Christ at all.

stupid sunday laws stemming from Christianity meant I couldnt get chocolate at 8pm last night cos the shop was shut.
pah

Same as most Christians then jenfraggle. We're "saved" by faith not works.

"I'm doing it because I want to, not so that I can get into Heaven."

agree agree agree. No place for religion in schools accept in RE/history.

This is one thing the French have so very much more right than we do.

i think of the uk as secular but with christian values if that makes any sense. generally i think religious values are a good thing. but since we are living in a democracy rather than a christian state shouldnt there be some sort of separation?

all this came up because atheists at council meetings felt they were being forced to take part or sit out. i think ok if it is a christian country and council members want to do worship fine i respect that, but those who dont adhere to that faith or of no faith should be able to opt out. the worship should take place before the meetings take place to account for this maybe 10 mims after?

apparently ppl werent being forced to take part and how can anyone be forced to worship anyway? i think its a mountain over a mole hill.

I bet OP celebrates Easter and Xmas.......

I think the UK is secular with Christian celebrations (pasted on over pagan ones). I don't think societies values are very close to Christian values, and agree totally with whoever said that our leadership is pretty far from displaying Christian values.

I dont know much about the bible but my guess would be there is more of an emphasis on sharing in times of need and less of an emphasis on demanding million pound bonuses for driving whole countries to their knees.

Even many practising Christians can see that merging religion and state in the structure of a democracy is at best complicated and at worst non-democratic.

You don't have to be anti-Christian, anti-christian values, or pro-Islam to think that however the country has evolved, there is still room for it to evolve and improve our democratic values.

I don't see why I should be told to piss off elsewhere, TriosGarcons - I am a highly loyal, committed, hardworking English Brit. I am entitled to use free speech to suggest that we could run ourselves a little more rationally if religion and state were formally separated.

I do celebrate Christmas. Not Easter though (don't like chocolate). What's that got to do with anything porca? There are Christians on this thread who agree that Church and State should be separated.

what excatly are 'Christian values'?

I'm guessing
being nice to one another
not stealing
helping out
not killing
Those sort of things right?

Not only are those the values of all major world religions but they are also secular athiest values.

Or should we be wading through the OT for some values, like killing your neighbour for working on the sabbath and other jolly things?

Haven't yet read all the thread but would agree that essentially our tradition and culture is predominantly Christian - and as other posters have said, the Queen, Head of State, is the head of the Church of England. Things have changed a lot in recent years, but I think if you go back only about 60 years most people were regularly attending church. Every small village has a church which used to be the centre of the community. Personally I wish Britain were a more Christian country and that all those churches weren't nearly empty most Sundays.

That is just my opinion and of course Britain has, and has had for a long time, many religions and religious freedom is fundamental. However I think the fact that the majority describe themselves as Christians on forms etc indicates that it is essentially a Christian country, otherwise they wouldn't describe themselves as such.