To think it is about time to stop being a Christian country.

[ShagOBite]

On the council prayers debate, lots of people have said "but we're a Christian country". Why are we? Should we be? How do we go about changing this? It seems so inappropriate and unnecessary in this day and age.

oh sHIT!! Sorry, stupid abbreviation to use there - been too busy on FB, where DC is used only for Scameron.

NOT attending church doesn't make someone NOT a christian, Mushroom.

I Mushroom, she explains so well and succinctly my thoughts whilst I am still trying to figure out how the hell to form my thoughts into a meanigful sentence.

Are you for hire Mushroom? You'd be great to have with me for things like job interviews!

I know loads of people who say they are Christian because their parents were - people who don't believe in God. I think it is more about ethnicity than religion in the census.

yes i dont attend a mosque, i dont see how that would make me less muslim tbh?

She's brilliant, isn't she. Very impressed here too Mushroom.

I also know grown adults who think that catholics aren't Christians.

My DF is an atheist but puts Church of Scotland on forms. He sees it as an affiliation rather than a religion. Annoying because this is a man who won't even visit places of worship on holiday but he is adding to the Christian figures quoted upthread.

I think my parents if questioned would have said that they are christian, but they don't believe in any god or religious practices - they are culturally christian but not actually christian if that makes sense.
The same applies to many who tick the christian box on the census I would have thought.

Another voice in the 'mushroom rocks' clamour.

I know so many people who'd tick C of E but wouldn't actually know or want to know anything about religion.

Heady I didn't say the local population should up and move I said and individual who didn't want to be part of their local establishment should move!

Surely your C of E school has changed to reflect its local population? Surely it isn't putting the 80% of Muslims into detention for not praying? Surely they teach a broad spectrum of religious and non religious holidays/special occasions etc?

And I can tell you from here it certainly feels like I am in the minority, having a debate about something that truly I think wasted the courts time and tax payers money. It didn't knock out the "prayers" it just ensured that they weren't part of the agenda (really, people put praying on the agenda before a council meeting, how relevant is it ) doesn't mean that they won't happen but that they won't be minuted. Which is why the whole thing is just such a waste. Its not groundbreaking in any form.

I just do want to point out here that I am not massively religious, I too believe that it is a personal choice and shouldn't be forced onto anyone. However I don't think that the secular examples are particularly great either, its not a case of religion going and being replaced by something "worse". I just feel that religion in this country is a little bit like the queen, something you possibly feel some affection for, some far more than others, some not at all but something that is intrisically linked with our more recent past and past that we can relate to.

mushroom, you have stated all that you think is wrong with the current society which is based on Christian beliefs.

What alternative do you suggest?

shag -yeah, the 'Catholics aren't Christians' one comes up a lot, doesn't it?! Someone got very cross with me the other day for suggesting they were.

" In a poll conducted by YouGov in March 2011 on behalf of the BHA, when asked the census question ?What is your religion??, 61% of people in England and Wales ticked a religious box (53.48% Christian and 7.22% other) while 39% ticked ?No religion?.

When the same sample was asked the follow-up question ?Are you religious??, only 29% of the same people said ?Yes? while 65% said ?No?, meaning over half of those whom the census would count as having a religion said they were not religious.

Less than half (48%) of those who ticked ?Christian? said they believed that Jesus Christ was a real person who died and came back to life and was the son of God.

Asked when they had last attended a place of worship for religious reasons, most people in England and Wales (63%) had not attended in the past year, 43% of people last attended over a year ago and 20% of people had never attended. Only 9% of people had attended a place of worship within the last week."

There. Only about 30% of the population actually consider themselves to be religious.

Headyeddie :o I don't think I'd be very good at it.. I've been helping DH with his online job applications and he hasn't got one yet.. Clearly I'm good at MN and not very articulate otherwise!

Must go to bed and not stay up til midnight arguing about religion....

I suggest utilitarianism. Job done.

Dione: I kind of thought it was fairly obvious?! A separated state and religion?!

1. It wasn't public money, the Secular Society fought the Christian Institute.
2. I, and others, will no longer be required to pray as art of my position.
3. People who are strongly not Christian won't be discoraged from standing for election.

Many other good things about this. Whole other thread.

Figgy

"I didn't say the local population should up and move I said and individual who didn't want to be part of their local establishment should move!"
No, you didn't say that the whole population should move but if each individual family are unhappy with their DC going to a CoE school then it amounts to the same thing, everyone has to move to a different area - of course this doesn't happen because people put up with a school that doesn't meet their needs because they can't move and leave family/friends and jobs

"Surely your C of E school has changed to reflect its local population? Surely it isn't putting the 80% of Muslims into detention for not praying? Surely they teach a broad spectrum of religious and non religious holidays/special occasions etc?"
As I have already said, no, they don't give detentions for not praying, but that isn't to say that they don't apply pressure in more subtle ways, letting the children know what is expected of them
They do teach a wide range in their RE syllabus, but in all other non-RE timetabled time the school is very CoE, it is slightly ridiculous tbh

You see the whole catholics aren't christians really irritates me I don't even know where to start on that one with people!

Those statistics were fascinating, thanks mushroom. I really want to know now what the people who said they were Christian but didn't think Christ was real or the son of God, did believe He was?!

Ok specifics? Bishops out of the lords, separation of church and state (queen can be head of one not both - or we could get rid of her all together but thats another thread :o) abolition of state funded religious schools and a religion biased curriculum, withdrawal of all religion based laws regarding homosexuality etc etc..

Really must go to bed now...

I'm down with your list Mushroom, perfect. :)

The Queen is head of State of Canada and they have no official religion. Of course, they are known to be descending into Fascist, baby-eating anarchy. Those Godless Canadians.

Can I just agree with you Mushroom before you go to bed?

That list would work for me.

I feel it's quite patronizing to assume religion needs all this state bolstering. Surely if it is true, it will survive whether or not you teach six year olds about it in school?

Heady Sorry, was watching the national lottery and dithering on writing posts

I understand the subtlety thing, genuinely I do, I just really hoped that in the circumstances that you are talking about that things would have changed but obviously I am deluded It is really sad and I do disagree with the c of e schools mainly because they some don't seem to have moved on or the fucking hoops you have to jump through.

Where we last lived (in a city) the local primary had a dreadful ofsted rating, and it was not a school that I wanted to be part of if I could help it. My other choice was the c of e school. To be "approved" (of all the fucking nerve) you had to be in church every sunday, (no holidays) for 3 years prior to applying, you had to jump in and join every single committee that you could, you had to have put your child down for the toddler group before it was concieved to even have consideratio n for joining reception. You had to donate, donate, donate. And even then? You might not get a place.

So we moved. It wasn't the only reason but our options were very low rated school with bad facilities etc etc, the c of e school or private. However there has been a huge backlash as the teaching of the other school has improved everything has started to jump into place by all accounts which pleases me as I hated the thought of being held to ransom just to try and get a better start in life. Hence no religious school for us currently.

I reckon Queenie would go for head of state. Some of those religious peeps scare the living daylights out of me..............