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AIBU?

Share your dilemmas and get honest opinions from other Mumsnetters.

Original poster

To think it is about time to stop being a Christian country.

872 replies

ShagOBite · 10/02/2012 22:15

On the council prayers debate, lots of people have said "but we're a Christian country". Why are we? Should we be? How do we go about changing this? It seems so inappropriate and unnecessary in this day and age.

OP posts:
FiggyFloraFinching · 10/02/2012 23:21

No you shouldn't have to move, but just because you don't follow religion or don't want to then the rest of the school shouldn't? Shouldn't you be the one to change to suit your needs rather than everyone else changing to suit your needs? Its like saying that just because 1 member of a group smokes, the 9 other non-smokers should all eat outside in the freezing cold. Because of a choice that one person has made.

runningwilde · 10/02/2012 23:21

Yabu - I agree with those who say it is part of who we are. If you don't like it why not go to another country - say a Muslim country and then maybe you will appreciate the Christian values of this country

JerichoStarQuilt · 10/02/2012 23:22

I don't see why they should have to?
Why do the religious people homeschool (no need to answer if it's personal, just curious) -is it because they can't find a school they like but approve of the concept of schools, or because they think schools are a bad thing in general?

HeadyEddie · 10/02/2012 23:24

Figgy You have left me very nearly speechless!

What situation could someone have put themselves in? Lets say a parent was born in an area, have family and a community of friends there, they have married a local, they have had children. They work in the community, maybe have a business in the area. But you think its ok for them to have to move just to find a non-religious school for their DC? How have they 'put themselves' in any situation?

I just can't believe that you think that its an ok situation.

FiggyFloraFinching · 10/02/2012 23:24

What is slightly ironic and does slightly go against my "argument" (although I am not entirely convinced I am that passionate about the whole argument just a bit bored with dh being fast asleep) is that the minority it seems would like to be a christian country and the majority a secular country. Looks like the minority currently is being adhered to which is what everyone has been arguing for Confused Grin

MaryMotherOfCheeses · 10/02/2012 23:25

I never had MNers down as such a bunch of antidisestablishmentarianists.

Interesting.

Original poster
ShagOBite · 10/02/2012 23:27

I'm not sure how you decided who the minority/majority is here Figgy. Maybe we nee a referendum?

OP posts:
DioneTheDiabolist · 10/02/2012 23:27

Most countries have a religion because it provides a bridge between the individual and others.

MrsTerryPratchett · 10/02/2012 23:28

runningwilde do you really believe that or is that just a knee-jerk reaction to reading that people don't agree with you? I find it astounding that people think that is an acceptable thing to say. Why should I move? I am British, paid my taxes, worked for the government, I believe I made a contribution, albeit small. Why should I move? Does my opinion not count? Ironic since I thought we lived in a democracy (Greek work BTW, not Christian).

Original poster
ShagOBite · 10/02/2012 23:28

BINGO! Excellent use of the term Mary. :)

OP posts:
HeadyEddie · 10/02/2012 23:29

Figgy In my local CoE school, which my DC will probably go to about 80% are muslim, a few a hindu and the rest, with very few exceptions, are non-religious.

It isn't a case of expecting the CoE church to change for my DC but to change to reflect that it isn't serving a christian community anymore. Why should a school where in any class say 90% of them aren't in any way christian be a CoE school? Why should a state school be a linked to a church.
But of course, you think the entire local population ought to up and move to a different area!

I'm not saying don't have any church schools, but there is no need for state schools to be religious.

FiggyFloraFinching · 10/02/2012 23:30

I never said it was an ok situation heady or I certainly didn't mean it to come across like that. But if you really feel so strongly about a situation (and I am not talking you personally I am talking you generally) then it is up to you to change the situation, yes. I am sorry if your dc are being forced to a religious school that is pressuring them into following a religion that you don't agree with, but my point was that it has changed since I was at school and although I have no idea how old you are, I expect that it has changed since you were a pupil at primary school too. For example, what you said up thread about being in detention for not praying and only you and the JW being in detention would not be acceptable in this day an age in any school.

I also seem to remember that we did not pay a massive amount of attention to any religion that my secondary school followed, and I doubt teenagers have changed much.

Original poster
ShagOBite · 10/02/2012 23:31

runningwile maybe we should transfer those thoughts...

I am a woman and love my job, but not keen on the sexism at work. Should I stay and try to change things for the better, despite my male colleagues being in the majority, or should I change jobs? If I change to a more sexist job, maybe it will make me appreciate what I had before, but it doesn't resolve the fact that it is sexist and wrong.

OP posts:
HeadyEddie · 10/02/2012 23:32

No, I'm a teacher and you are right they wouldn't give detentions anymore but that doesn't mean that there isn't still a pressure applied, I just think its more subtle now.

MushroomMagee · 10/02/2012 23:33

Nailak: yes is the short answer. We have bishops in the house of lords forming policy but no one else is there specifically to represent their religion as they are. that is forming laws of the country.

DioneTheDiabolist: I disagree with just about everything you have written.

Why are we a Christian country? Because it has been an integral part of our history, culture and laws. Some good, some bad. No. There is no reason to continue to support something because it has been that way in the past. If something is wrong we change it because it is wrong, we do not allow it to persist because of "tradition".

During that time we have changed and grown. Policy has been influenced by other Christian faiths and non Christian faiths. To say that we should ditch the beliefs and traditions of the past is to deny who we are. For what? No. Policy is consistently biased in favour of Christianity, adoption, abortion, contraception, sex ed in schools, worship in schools, allowing c of e schools to be state funded, homosexuality in the law, I could go on and on, but all of these policies are based on christian principles - when the majority of the population is NOT christian. Its not denying who we are - we are not christian. For what? A fair and unbiased society that allows people to act upon the views they hold, rather than a set of values foisted on them by an organisation which they are not affiliated to.

I think that we are very fortunate to live in a progressive country where free thinking is encouraged and religious freedom is guaranteed. This Christian country is a magnet for people the world over. They come here knowing that they are free to practice their religion and enjoy freedom as individuals. I think thats brilliant! This is the bit that really gets me. NO - religious freedom is NOT guaranteed - the way to guarantee it is to be secular! We aren't as oppressed as some islamic countries but thats because we are not as fundamentally christian state as they are a fundamentally islamic state. The way to have religious freedom is to have a state that allows religion but doesn't follow it. Our state currently foists laws of one religion on people who do not follow it. What you have just said you think is brilliant is what I am arguing for! I won't go into them again, but my previous points about the areas that religion have had a effect on - that is not religious freedom! There are no state funded atheist schools! Collective worship is on the curriculm ffs! This country is a magnet - and I don't believe that is anything to do with what religion it "follows" but ultimately, if we are to truly allow people to follow their religious freedom then why must we not separate state and religion? Religion will still exist, it will still be practised. But it won't form part of our laws. None of them will. And that is the only way that free and equal access to a religion of your choice is guaranteed.

Thumbwitch · 10/02/2012 23:33

IF/when there's a revolution and the monarchy is removed, THEN it will become a secular country, I'm sure.
But while the Queen is still officially "head of state", I can't see it changing. And probably don't think it should.

I do wish that DC could be tried and hanged for treason though - I know he's not betraying the Queen as such, more the entire country apart from a few "robber barons" who run the banks and big business and who may or may not be his old chums from school etc., but still. Actually, sod hanging him, that's too good for him - let him rot in prison for a looonnnng time. (and yes I know it's not entirely his fault, but he's a good figurehead for punishment, the lying twofaced toad)

nailak · 10/02/2012 23:34

jericcho if youve read the thread about a jw and birthday sweets that is why.

terry I agree it is not acceptable and non sensical, it is like saying, "dont agree with mps expense claims, it is tradition, if you dont like it move to a country where mps dont claim expenses"

Thumbwitch · 10/02/2012 23:35

MushroomMagee - did you read the bit about the consensus where 78% of the population stated that they were Christian? that's usually considered a majority.

HeadyEddie · 10/02/2012 23:35

Once again Mushroom has conveyed my thoughts better than I ever could!

JerichoStarQuilt · 10/02/2012 23:35

nailak - I've not, thanks, I will look.

MrsTerryPratchett · 10/02/2012 23:35

Thumbwitch I thought you wanted your Darling Children tried and hanged for treason. Very disturbed.

Original poster
ShagOBite · 10/02/2012 23:36

Thought you mean DC as in children thumbwitch!

OP posts:
MushroomMagee · 10/02/2012 23:36

Erm thumbwitch did you read that bit where only 23% of the population actually attend church once a month or more?!

HeadyEddie · 10/02/2012 23:37

Terry Yes, I thought that too! It took me a few moments to get it - a sure sign that its nearly bed time.

MushroomMagee · 10/02/2012 23:38

"The Office for National Statistics understands the religion question to be a proxy question for ethnicity. This is in order to capture the Jewish and Sikh populations, both of which are captured under race legislation but are not included in the ethnicity category in the census, as they should be, rather than the religion category. The result is that a very loose, cultural affiliation is 'measured' by the census in terms of religion or belief, with particular over-inflation of the Christian figure, and an undercounting of the non-religious population. As a result, the census data on religion is most definitely not suitable for use by employers or service providers"