To think it is about time to stop being a Christian country.

[ShagOBite]

On the council prayers debate, lots of people have said "but we're a Christian country". Why are we? Should we be? How do we go about changing this? It seems so inappropriate and unnecessary in this day and age.

Are you in the UK Jumjum? There are no secular or atheist schools in this country. What school could he send his kids to?

Jumjum

Technodad - if you were as amusing as you are offensive your posts might not be so distasteful. But at least you are honest: you don't want Christians professing their views in public

My post was a joke that I found on tbe internet and I have already stated that I have no problem with people praying whereever they wish.

I am sure the children and vunerable adults abused by people in power within the church share your view that I am a truly evil person. if there were less people like me the world would clearly be a better place!

Do you care to answer any questions yet?

No I disagree children are not given the option to say no. Four year olds do get it shoved down their throats, you can cry all you like about how I describe it but the song remains the same. Religion is forced on my dcs from the age of 4 and it is not needed and not wanted by either them or me.

ShagoBite - I am not sure what questions you mean though I slightly resist the idea that I am obliged to answer any to NSS interogation - at least while the N.S.S have not yet gained power.

Thanks ShagOBite - there are no secular schools locally. Must I move house and change jobs?

You'll have to move to France technodad.

Would you list the questions for her. Again?

Well, I guess the main question that remains to be answered by anyone fighting on your side if the fence is this: Why can't you do it in private, or collectively outside of schools, councils etc.? Apart from the power to influence, what purpose does it serve?

I slightly resist the idea that I am obliged to answer any to NSS interogation - at least while the N.S.S have not yet gained power.

You resist even answering questions, yet I am supposed to sit quietly whilst my child is being force taught a religion I don't believe in. Seems fair and democratic - not!

Is it the case that no-one is answerable to anyone unless they are elected into power.

shagobite - it is for the N.S.S to make the case for change not for me to defend the status quo.

Re schools: technodad take the child out of what you clearly thing is an awful school or at least out of the said lessons; there are very many CofE schools in England - not to mention the bulk of community schools - where there is little or no Christian belief taught and no daily act of worship that is mainly christian in Character. Move schools, I would. What school is it so we can check out their website and get a feel for what a fundamentalist operation they are inflicting on children.

Jumjum, you are aware we're trying to have a discussion here? Do you understand the concept?

Here are the questions:

Question 1) the idea that my child can be sent to another school assumes I live in a part of the country where there are a good number of schools to choose from. And the suggestion of opting-out my child from assembly assumes that I would be willing to single my child out as being different (I am not and he has told me he wants to sit and pretend because he doesn't want to look different). I remeber a group of JW children in my school being removed from assembly. They were bullied remorselessly by the remainder of the school for being different - a school of good Christians!

School should be about celebrating the similarities between our children, not identifying the differences! Doing so is the only way we can improve tolerance and understanding within this world.

Excluding people of no faith, or different faith from assembly isn't a million miles away from making the kid that have different skin colour sit in another room! - How can this position be justified?

Question 2) (from notsofluffy): Why can't religious people just doing it in private. Why do they need to do it around people who don't want it?

Question 3) (from MrsTerrryP): For the Christians and those of other religions who want to pray before meetings, the school day and so on. Why can't you just close your eyes/go to a quiet room/go to the park before school or at lunch and pray like that? Why does it have to be public? Genuinely confused about this. I don't understand why there has to be compulsory worship at schools and before Council meeting (and yes, I do consider it pretty compulsory if you put it on the agenda or make it part of assembly)

Question 4) (From GrimmaTheGnome): Aren't these acts [praying during council meetings] totally at odds with what Jesus told his followers in Matt 6:5-6? Aren't the secularists - advising quiet prayer before the public meeting - not only legally but also more scripturally correct?

This is a link to my son's school Technoson's school

shagobite - re your schools' question. The churches have been providing educational services long before the state did itself; the church schools have grown because successive govts of both parties have responded to voters demands for better/higher quality state funded education.

Personally, I think many though not all Church schools have little or no Christian faith or practice within them -so the case for removing the Church from state provided education could be made by a Christian.

I am glad we have your support jumjum. Please sign the e-petition epetitions.direct.gov.uk/petitions/1617

Technodad - if that is your DSs school then poor him, Never mind all that singing of Jerusalem (for which you do have my sympathy) but what about those ridiclous uniforms.

Jumjum and popcornbiscuit (and any others who care to) please can you answer the question.

What is the point of mass Christian worship being enforced in state schools? What purpose does it serve?

Why would it not be better to say that teachers, students and other members of the school community who wish to worship together can do so, while those who don't can do something else.

have the royalty changed the catholic marriage thing yet?

becuase s soon as we get the chance we will rule the land with BELLS AND SMELLS and make you ALL say the our father PROPERLY

TechnoDad - I don't support your petition because what we do know about the church schools is that they tend (not all) to provide a broader and higher quality education than community schools so on those grounds I think getting rid of them would not be justified on educational grounds.

I know many of the private schools heads criticise faith schools for being devisive (CLBS head recently) but that is like the pot calling the kettle black. Perhaps you are similar as a parent criticising faith schools in the state sector but seemingly choosing a school with a faith foundation for your child in the private sector,

In jumjum I think we have the perfect example of why it's pointless to engage a theist in a discussion that depends on reason and/or logic. The very act of choosing a religion is to place faith and belief as more important than logical thinking or reasoning.

You can't hope to win an argument based on logic with someone who has turned their back on logic.

Snorbs - logic?. I must have missed it. Reason? I have only seen hate and prejudice.
Consistency? well we have TechnoDad complaining about the faith brainwashing at his DS scholl when it appears that the school he chose to send his child to is a 600 year old school with a faith foundation at its core.

cow-towing LOVE IT

Is there some other Christian following this thread who can give us a reality check - is what Jumjum sees really there? Because she seems to be inferring things left, right and centre which I for one certainly don't think I'm implying.

...and still no one has answered the question...

GrimmaTheNome - what worries me is the idea that the NSS should tell a Christian where (particular type of public space), how (hands waving in blessing themselves) and why (secularists one true interpretation of the bible and Church teaching) they should practice their faith. It is not only arrogant on the part of the NSS but cuts across religious and civil liberties - and does smack of the Soviet-style treatment of Orthodox Christian in the 20the century and the imprisonment of parents who passed their faith on to their children.

State funded state schools can be argued either way - I tend to think while they are providing good quality education to kids from ordinary families they should stay even if the Christian element tends to be rather weak.

The attitude here seems to be let's unravel the unwritten constitution and things will turn out ok (but in case things don't work out ok, we will send our kids to a faith foundation school like Eton so that we get to run the country in any case). Some are truly more equal than others - up the pigs!

jumjum again for the record... In the last 12 months I have been to Hanukkah at my friends' house (potato latkes delicious), Christmas concert another friend was in (very lovely), Eid at a relative's house (goat curry anyone?). I enjoyed every one and am grateful to have these people in my life. I have sung carols and participated. I cover my head/shoulders/whatever in places of worship which I would not knock down. I wouldn't ban any religious festival, the more the merrier as far as I am concerned. Atheists and secularists are not hateful and discriminatory, honest. I really like my Christian friends even the one who has repeatedly tried to get me into his Church, bless him.

It is me and my child being forced to participate that I object to. State schools are supposed (by law) to have a broadly Christian worship element. So, even if I take my child out of a C of E school, they will still be in a school with worship. Some don't comply but I am sure you would like them to.

TechnoDad has mentioned the bullied JWs a couple of times, I have mentioned how I felt when I used to walk out of assembly. DO you really think it is OK to do this to children?