To think it is about time to stop being a Christian country.

[ShagOBite]

On the council prayers debate, lots of people have said "but we're a Christian country". Why are we? Should we be? How do we go about changing this? It seems so inappropriate and unnecessary in this day and age.

No-one answered my question about Matt 6 5-6 either. Why do Christians pray in public at all? Its the part where Jesus teaches the disciples the Lord's Prayer and he very explicitly doesn't want people to publicly parrot it.

MrsTerryPratchett and GrimmaTheNome - both your recent posts are quite clear: in your new, tractor-rich, secular UK Christians wouldn't be allowed to pray in public.

So, while the BNP would have police protection to peacefully protest (or any other group having the same right to protest about anything however odious) a Christian group couldn't have, for example, a carol concer in public. That is a frightening prospect but is of course a natural consequence of the hate displayed in some of these other posts.

Btw why do all you secularists seem to have "imaginary friends" - Christians haven't such an imaginery friend. Still, each to their own. (Really, I am sure you use the phrase because you think it is either clever or offensive, but really it is neither merely showing yourself to have no understanding of what Christianity is about).

I suspect that they realise they don't actually have ANY answers that hold up to critique.

No doubt they think they are being bullied by unreasonable and aggressive atheists, but sadly they just don't see the irony!

I deeply hope that one day (in my lifetime) the country can be turned into a fair and non discriminatory place - where politicians like Pickles can't just overturn a high court ruling because he doesn't agree with it!

I urge you all to join the NSS (it's only £29 per year and pays for legal support for people discriminated against just like the Bidiford council case) and for those who haven't already, please sign this e-petition to force a secular schooling system debate: epetitions.direct.gov.uk/petitions/1617

Please all share this e-petition on Facebook, twitter etc and hopefully we can make a positive difference. The number of signatures has gone up by 1000 in the last 2 weeks, and the word needs to be spread as much as possible to reach 100,000.

Oh jumjum you could have your carol concerts etc in public, same as any other religion could have their equivalent. You just couldn't have them as mandatory for children, or as an integral part of anything official to do with running other people's lives. There is a difference between being in public and forcing people to take part, the same as there's a difference between something being opt in rather than the default.

I have no problem whatsoever in anyone worshipping whatever God or Gods they choose, I just can't see why I should be made to take part if I want to be involved in things that have nothing to do with what religion I am.

I think christians are meant to be up front about their faith. In John's gospel Jesus is described as a light in the darkness.

Jehovas witnesses may door knock but I haven't come across main stream christians doing this. They may put a leaflet through someone's door about an event.

maybe some people don't mind if someone knocks at their door if they are lonely (I don't like Jehova's witnesses calling TBH) but it may be the only visitor that someone gets.

I think it is good to pray in a group as well as by oneself.

Sorry Grimma will look at Math 6 5/6 later.

Look, there is a difference between having events which are open to the public, events which are visible/audible to the public and events which are inflicted on the public. Carol concerts are no more unacceptable than rock concerts: people can choose whether or not to attend them. Christians or representatives of other superstitions who choose to witter at passers by or make speeches in the High St are no more annoying than chuggers or campaigners for pressure groups - OK they are annoying, but not so annoying that they should be banned, whatever they represent.
But forcing people to sit through or participate in Christian bullshit, or any other bullshit that is not relevant to the event or place, is not acceptable.

It seems impossible to get the buckethead variety of christian to explain why their nonsense is so much more special than anyone else's. It's just as stupid as any other superstition so there is no justification for it to be given any more privilege. Lots of people, for instance, are so thick that they take astrology seriously. Horoscopes are published in many daily newspapers. They are bullshit, but harmless enough bullshit. However, if a school began its day with a reading aloud of horoscopes to which the DC had to pay attention on pain of punishment, most if not all parents would regard this as worrying and wierd.

MrsTerryPratchett and GrimmaTheNome - both your recent posts are quite clear: in your new, tractor-rich, secular UK Christians wouldn't be allowed to pray in public.

jumjum - have you actually read this thread properly. People on this thread are complaining about religion being forced down our throats and there is no suggestion that people should be banned from praying in public, or having a carol concert in the town centre. But if you want to make up the facts again (just like you do with your god myth), fill your boots.

If you had bothered to do any research, you will see that the National Secular Society is against laws that restrict freedom of religious speech and think that the case of Mr McAlpine (a Christian who insulted a gay couple in the street) being charged is an over reaction and are calling for the charge to be overturned www.secularism.org.uk/street-preacher-charged-for-spou.html

Btw why do all you secularists seem to have "imaginary friends" - Christians haven't such an imaginery friend. Still, each to their own. (Really, I am sure you use the phrase because you think it is either clever or offensive, but really it is neither merely showing yourself to have no understanding of what Christianity is about).

The imaginary friend reference is (as you know) completely justified. Praying is a process of communicating with god (who doesn't exist) in your own head. If an adult was found to be talking to fairies, you would think them pretty loopy, but you can't prove that the fairies don't exist can you.

Rather than making rouge claims about what we are trying to achieve, why don't you try to answer some of the questions that have been posed - but with an answer that doesn't use the word "transcending".

from fluffy: why can't religious people just doing it in private. Why do they need to do it around people who don't want it?

from Techno: how can you justify the scenario stated at my post at 09:45 yesterday?

From Mrs Terry Pratchett: Why can't you just close your eyes/go to a quiet room/go to the park before school or at lunch and pray like that? Why does it have to be public? Genuinely confused about this. I don't understand why there has to be compulsory worship at schools and before Council meeting (and yes, I do consider it pretty compulsory if you put it on the agenda or make it part of assembly).

MrsTerryPratchett and GrimmaTheNome - both your recent posts are quite clear: in your new, tractor-rich, secular UK Christians wouldn't be allowed to pray in public.

No. That is not what I meant in the least. I don't mind Christians praying in (appropriate) public spaces. I was simply questioning why they do it when it seems to directly contradict what Jesus is reported to have said.

Solidasbrass - leaving aside the anger in your post (annoying, bullshit, witter, buckethead,...) so Chrisitans would be allowed to hold a carol concerts in public; well thank you for that. Do you think if we asked the wise leaders of the new, great harvests, secular UK would also let Christians to bless themselves in public too? Or is that just a little bit too Christian. And is that the settled view of Technodad and the other NSS spokespeople on the mumsnet world?

You (and I) may or may not like the position of the establised Church in England but are secularists all as clever as Richard Dawkins that it could all be unravelled in a way that would achieve the outcome you seem to want so much.

GrimmaTheNome - stop digging. You are not making a great case for your cause: "Appropriate" public spaces - the arrogance...., the implications for relgious and civil liberties..., (Christians would in any case be bringing in the grain harvest to beat last years output in the NSS led UK)

I don't much like the term 'imaginary friend' either TBH. Children have imaginary friends- they know they are imaginary and grow out of them naturally.

I used to be a Christian - the God in my head was not a product of my imagination. Jumjum is right, I did not have an 'imaginary friend'. Now, I don't for one moment expect someone who still believes to agree with me - I wouldn't have done - but a more accurate term is delusion. (a term I arrived at alone roughly 30 years ago when seriously examining the question)

I am not an NSS spokesperson I am merely a member of the NSS.

but are secularists all as clever as Richard Dawkins that it could all be unravelled in a way that would achieve the outcome you seem to want so much.

Clearly all the secularists are not as clever as Richard Dawkins. Are all of the members of the church as clever as the pope. I am not sure the question is relevant though.

Why do you refuse to answer any questions??? Do you have any answers?

You seem annoyed that there is some threat of your religious freedom (which there is not, like I say, the NSS supports religious freedom). All people are saying, is that it not appropriate for your faith to be pushed upon others (especially young children).

Religion is like a penis.
It is fine to have one.
It is fine to be proud of it.
But please don't whip it out in public and start waving it around.
And please don't try and shove it down my children's throats.

"They don't really give a damn whether you pray or not, they have an obligation to shove their religion down your throat whether you like it or not."

That's completely untrue BettyKitchen, and sad to read. Sharing the good news can be done in many ways, most importantly in attempting to live a kind and humble life as Jesus wished us to. Of course we mere humans fail at this, but we do care about others and sharing our faith has nothing to do with shoving anything down anyone's throat (a tired and rather aggressive phrase, by the way).

People will hear many things in life with which they disagree, whether it be religious beliefs, political stances or whether Marmite is nice or not. Everyone is free to say no to these things at any time.

"Why do Christians pray in public at all?"

In the Bible we see there's a time and a place for both public prayer and private prayer, individual and group prayers.

No one forces my kid to eat marmite at school. That would be illegal!

Sharing the fricking "good news".

Even if you believe it, how can you claim it to be news?

Jumjum -you're making no case for your cause at all. When I was a Christian I knew that there were appropriate and inappropriate times and places for public prayer (never of course an inappropriate moment for private prayer. ). Are you so arrogant you can't think of such occasions?

Private prayer - fine
public prayer - if you must
Forced or coerced prayer - not necessary. Surely?

No one has a problem with Christians blessing themselves in public, either - unless they do it in such a way as to actually inconvenience other people such as blocking the escalator while they do a bit of arm-waving and jabbering.

Popcornbiscuit - what is being objected to is those people who want to insist on others not just listening to their nonsense but joining in with it. I am quite familiar with Christian mythology, having grown up in the UK in a school system which taught us about it. It's boring and irrelevant to me. I don't need to be told any more of it.

Technodad - if you were as amusing as you are offensive your posts might not be so distasteful. But at least you are honest: you don't want Christians professing their views in public - probably even an Away in a Manger in December would be too much for you and the NSS. (eerie parallel their with that acronym and the country you seem to want to create).

ShagOBite = at least that is funny.

Popcorn - thanks for your answer (though it doesn't quite deal with the contradiction of the Lords Prayer so often being repeated in public)

So, do you think that the specific cases we're discussing (prayers as part of council meeting formal business, prayers as part of school assembly in a non-faith state school) fall into the category of 'time and a place for .. public prayer ... group prayers.'

Seriously jumjum, a lot of questions have been left unanswered by you. Could you give it a go instead of lashing out defensively?

TechnoDad - take your child out the school if you object so much to the Marmite. You are not required to attend such a school - if you feel so strongly about your child being taught Christianity and saying the odd prayer go out of your way to get them into another school... at least until the day NSS achieves its aims.

I suspect you chose the faith school because there is much you like about it for your child - much of which will probably be closely connected to the fact that it is a faith school.

Jumjum - your idea that any of us want to create some soviet-style state with no freedom of religion is wilful misreading. That really is a product of your own imagination.

How many times do we have to remind - secularism means freedom from both religious privelige and religious discrimination. A closer model would be the USA as envisaged by the Founding Fathers.