To think it is about time to stop being a Christian country.

[ShagOBite]

On the council prayers debate, lots of people have said "but we're a Christian country". Why are we? Should we be? How do we go about changing this? It seems so inappropriate and unnecessary in this day and age.

I can't believe you truly think that humanists and atheists don't have any values! How offensive.

The Christian faith (and it's representatives) have hardly always lived up to "truth", "love" and "forgiveness" over the years.

I have values, they just don't include believing in a god. Why do religious people think they have a monopoly on having values?!

Sorry notfluffyatall I won't go there!

notfulffyatall - you clearly have very strong views and beliefs - but in what? i am genuinely interested.

How you can possibly claim to believe in truth whilst spouting that tripe is beyond me.

jumjum, I think you can adhere to ideals of love, forgiveness, mutual respect etc and strive to live your life according to them without believing in a god. that is where you and I would depart on truth, I suppose, but it's also where you would depart from other religious people on who the "true" god is, so it's a broader thing than simply dividing believers from non-believers.

My argument throughout is that I don't want a religious belief to be enshrined in law, save for the protection of rights to worship - I do think that's important, actually, but what I want for my children is the freedom to grow and explore all the possibilities, religious or otherwise, and make their decisions when they are old enough to do so. For me that means not presenting christianity - protestantism, I guess, as CofS and CofE share that - as a default, but rather one of many belief systems held by people. And yes, one that has strongly influenced the society in which they live, and to which they'll have the easiest access. I just don't want that to be presented as a given while they're too wee to really think it through for themselves.

Technodad - you are clearly very offended by what I have not said. So the values you have consist of NOT believing in God. I got that. But what do you belive in other than going to work, having the odd pint and being reciprocally nice to people you meet.

Can I ask why you need to know everyone's beliefs? Genuine question.

Tangentially, we were talking the other day to profoundly christian very good friends of ours about the meaning of turning the other cheek - their understanding of it was not to simply offer oneself up to further attacks, but rather to shame the attacker, and was a gesture which would have been quite well understood in Jesus time. I'll have to find out a bit more in case I've badly misremembered, but it was quite interesting/

Would you be interested in my beliefs (apart from those about secularism)? I need a few minutes to write them.

Habbibu - the dominant set of values in UK are not Christian but secular: money,self, fame, etc so no fear that Children will be inculcated with other values least of all unfashionable Christian values around help for the poor, etc if you don't stand up for what you proclaim to profess.

YABU this country and the Western world as a whole is built upon on a Christian heritage and this affects most things we do in life whether people appreciate and choose to acknowledge this or not. For the country to have no Christian influence is impossible given how our society has evolved.

Who has decided on these 'Christian values'?

Because the values of the Vatican are all about money, self and fame, and and have been for centuries.

TessTickular - yes I would be interested in your considered fundamental value, partly in the hope that I might agree with many of them and partly because they might be a more hopeful guide than the dominant values in UK - values which are cetainly not Christian.

See above re 'Christian values'

Christian values can be found in reading the Gospels.

Are you looking for my beliefs or my values (before I start writing)?

Where can non-Christian values be read?

"notfulffyatall - you clearly have very strong views and beliefs - but in what? i am genuinely interested."

My personal values are just that, personal. All you need to know for the purposes of this discussion is that I'm a good pperson, good without god if you'll excuse the cliche.

As far as beliefs are concerned I hold none with regard to anything supernatural. I also don't do woo medicine and don't have a 'spiritual bone in my body. I live an extremely full life, because I KNOW this is it.

Talking about values, no theist has ever reconciled the little anomaly that atheists are actually have better values than theists. The evidence below, while it does come from an atheism website it has full reference to sources. Enjoy

www.atheismresource.com/2010/atheist-dont-commit-as-much-crime-as-the-religious-do

How do you know I don't stand up for it?

Generally most people believe in kindness, fairness, loyalty, honesty etc. These are not specific to any one superstition. People on the whole believe that other people are fundamentally decent and mean them no harm, and they want to reciprocate.
Superstition can reinforce these positive beliefs, or it can sideline them in favour of toxic ones, such as the rightness of persecuting those who refuse to accept the existence of anyone else's imaginary friends, or (something all the superstitions have in common) an insistence on the inferiority of women and a dysfunctional, punitive and controlling attitude towards sex.

I have no problem with people wanting to follow the essentially pointless rituals of the superstition of their choice, or indeed to restrict their own enjoyment of life on the grounds that their imaginary friend is a miserable bastard. I have a big problem with the superstitious who have basically skipped all the stuff about compassion and fair dealing and gone straight for the racism, sexism and homophobia.

"How do you know I don't stand up for it?"

Who is this even directed at?

whooa solidgoldbrass - you do have issues. I love the way Dawkinists (didn't he do really badly on The Today Programme today) use the term imaginery friend. It is so cute.
notflufflyatall - thanks for the link I wil read with interest.
Testikular - you are making hard work of this - belief or values? You choose but essentially what fundamental principles guide your choices, and why?

Dawkinists?

You don't get it at all do you?

I'm off to bed but it'd be really good if someone, anyone, could answer my question.

Why do you need to share it with me when I don't want it? Why can't you just do it in private, or with your own kind?

I'd be happy to abandon part of our 'heritage and culture' that is based on a text that happily endorses slavery and homophobia amongst other sickening things.

Why would we 'need' religious identity?

Ok, my beliefs:

That the most important thing for everyone is integrity. Everyone should strive to be a good person.

That all people are inherently good. However, people do bad things when they don't have the support or skills to do the right thing. Greed and envy can make people lose sight of the right thing to do, so therefore often people need to be reminded of what is right. It is everyone's responsibility to ensure that others know right from wrong. Humans should support one another, and should always make a special effort to support the vulnerable - this includes animals. When people are being unkind to others, we should step in and put a stop to it, to the best of our ability.

That education is the fundamental of everything. All children and adults should have access to a free, diverse and unbiased education.

That all humans should have the freedom to make any decisions that affect only themselves. Any decisions that negatively affect others should be examined to see where the balance between benefit and negative repercussions lies. Our laws should reflect this.

That the environment should be protected from our greed.

That all children should have a fair and equal access to resources - financial, educational etc.

That everyone should have access to a healthy lifestyle, including suitable accommodation and health care.

That all people should have equality of opportunity. There should be the harshest of penalties for sexism, racism, disablism or any other imbalance of equality of opportunity in the work place and public life. (This includes religion - for example all peers to be fully elected, not selected from Synod etc.)

That's all I have time for now, I could do a whole manifesto!