...to have let my almost-6yr-old DD cry and wail for 3 and a half hours during the night because I wouldn't lie with her while she fell back to sleep?

[OhSoDespicableMe]

...this was after spending an hour and a half getting her to go to sleep in the first place, without myself or DH lying with her. She has always been a terrible sleeper, from the day she was born, and is a VERY active, full of energy, always-on-the-go sort of girl. And a drama queen and attention-seeker. And I love her dearly. But we've finally decided that it is not reasonable to lie with her while she falls asleep, and that she should be able to stay in bed and not come looking for us for a drink, trip to the loo (sometimes 4 or 5 trips in a row), to say she has a sore throat/tummy/toe etc etc etc etc, to ask for her music back on, less light/more light and so on for blooming hours on end!!

I never left her to cry it out as a baby - I hate the thought of this for babies who are too small to understand why they've been left alone and why Mummy won't come get them. But once DD was old enough to have decent understanding of things we started just sitting next to her while she fell asleep, and then later leaving her with music/night light etc. This was sort of going ok, although seldom straight forward. But things have now escalated way out of control. She's simply not getting enough sleep, nor are we. And she starts to stress about bedtime hours before she's due to go to bed. I hate seeing her worried or upset, and letting her cry for so long last night 9in between taking her back to bed millions of times) really went against my grain.

Any advice for me? Can any others who don't believe in cry-it-out etc reassure me that it's ok for a 6yr old to cry in order to learn to sleep in their own bed? Help!!

She will!

Yeah, I know, I've been reduced to tears myself by Mn posts (while ago now, other problems) - it's a poor place in general to get consensus on parenting matters, but a good place to have a laugh.
BUT not as polarised as all that. More...weedily mishmashy with a few froth-at-the-mouthers.

I have a dgd [now 12] who was like this.One night,in desperation,her mum got out an old baby mobile-the sort that plays classical music and throws a light show on the ceiling.Dgd used to watch the lights,listen to the music and fall asleep-she was told to just think about the colours and the musicand imagine herself dancing with the fairies in the air.It did work and she carried on having the mobile for ages-she was 5 when it started and I'm not sure when it stopped but she was at least 8.Good Luck :) I think it was a Baby Einstein mobile but not sure.

R2PeePoo You sound a lovely mum. Wish I had your patience - I just opt for the easy option of co-sleeping. DD now sets her alarm for 6am so she can come in for an hour long snuggle before it is time to get up.

The thing is Pictish I can see where you (and the others who agree with your stance) are coming from.

I can see that being firm, setting boundaries etc are great. I use that a lot in other areas of our lives.

But I also know that I was a godawful sleeper both as a child and up until about 18months ago. My dad told me (when I found out I was pg with DD) that after living with me as a baby/child he understood why some parents battered their children to death.

Unfortunately, having a one answer fits all response does not cover the gamut of human experience.

I have taken a much gentler approach with my children as a direct response to the way I was parented. I cried myself to sleep more nights than I can remember. It doesn't feel nice. I refused to have that for my children.

My DH can fall asleep in (literally) 5 seconds. When I asked him how he just looked bewildered. He didn't have that experience, he couldn't understand. I finally learnt some strategies (deeply boring repetitive lists that I say in my head until I manage to 'turn off'. Even now, it takes me at least 20 minutes, even when I am totally and utterly exhausted.

Calling the DD in this situation 'a drama queen' is unkind and without foundation. Do you know that the tears are crocodile? Do you know that she is doing this merely to wind her mother up? Or is there even the slightest, most remote possibility that this is a child who needs some help and compassion.

I just wanted to say that I think, OP, that you are doing the right thing and already succeeding, one hour is much less than three hours! You don't have to be nasty about it whatsoever, very calm and so on, but returning back to bed will work, even if you do it 100 times. It becomes boring for them.

I do agree with other posters that have suggested, perhaps something like listening to a story CD may also work, but only when she understands bed is bed and you have to stay in bed unless there is an emergency/illness. I think the story CD is a bit of a treat too, if she is sensible and stays in bed.

I don't think it really matters how you have got here, this is where you are. It does sound like it's gone on for a long time and isn't a sudden anxiety thing or related to nightmares, it's just a habit with a rather overdramatic child. You being calm and sorting this now is the right thing to do, as your child is now tired and not coping well partly due to this.

I hope it works out for you, it sounds like you are already on the right path.

MrsDistinctly, the OP herself called her daughter a 'drama queen', I'm sure she knows her daugher pretty well.

you're doing so well op. love that you hate cc. i do too and will never use it. i don't believe it actually works as well as everyone says it does either.

anyway.

i think the first thing to tackle is to get her to stay in bed. reward charts or whatever works for her. the getting up is very disturbing of any work you've done up until that point.

once that's cracked, you can work on everything else.

Well done, having similar issues with my DS and as long as you are being kind but still putting her back to bed she'll get there, she does just need to learn how to go to sleep.

Thats what I keep telling my DS, haven't been brave enough to tackle it yet but will do.

And very sweet about the card, my DS would do this too, just reassure her that you are not far away.

ExitPursuedByABear Thank you .

I would always rather have a longer bedtime than have to get up in the night, I am a hideous snarly hell beast less than patient when woken up from a deep sleep for anything less than sickness/death/limbs hanging off. I only had to do the things above two or three times, it was one extra long bedtime and then we fell into a routine and she sorted herself out - we are back to normal now, she just needed that extra reassurance for a short time. She doesnt need the ring every night now and 'madgy blanks' is tucked around her puffles instead.

Plus now I have DS (2.5) who had medical issues which meant he didn't sleep for longer than two/three hours in a stretch until he was 13 months and even now occasionally wakes up in the middle of the night. If I had to deal with both of them wandering around after me I would go insane.

In the middle of the night I do still feel get a little nervous in the dark and can let my imagination conjure up all sorts of horrors, I still don't read ghost stories or watch horror movies at bedtime. I can overcome it, but I have a lot of sympathy for DC awake, curled up tightly under the covers, eyes open and flicking around the room in a terror about what might be out there.

Well, I asked for opinions and by-golly I got them!!

Just to clarify a couple things - as I mentioned in my original post, sleep has been a bit of an issue for my DD since she was a baby - I may have put this down to my parenting initially, as she is my first born. However, 2 more DC later, whose sleep is what I'd perhaps term 'normal' and I now know that different kids sleep differently, even when treated in exactly the same way. Case-in-point - DD2 goes through exactly the same bedtime routine as DD1 and falls asleep quietly and happily (even with DD1 ranting in the bed next to hers). So I am fully aware that not every child responds to things in the same way. Hence I was asking for advice on dealing with MY DD, and her own particular set of circumstances, perhaps from people with similar DCs/dealing with similar issues.

I did indeed call my daughter a drama queen and attention seeking, but I did follow with the sentence ?And I love her dearly?! She is lively and dramatic and entertaining and a bit of a whirlwind, which makes her great fun to be with in the daytime, but not so much at night. She is not a horrible spoilt child. She is generally very well behaved and doing great at school. I?m a fairly middle of the road parent, not mega-strict, but not a pushover either. We have rules and standards that are not up for debate (certainly not ?drippy? !!). We have never used a naughty step or similar as naughty behaviour has really never been a big issue ? she responds well when chatted to about why a thing is naughty and why she shouldn?t do it again. This sleep thing is really her only problem.

Also, my OP may have given the wrong impression ? I did not leave her alone in the dark wailing for 3 and a half solid hours! We had a 3 and a half hour session involving her crying and trying to persuade us to lie with her, her getting up for the loo, her coming to our room and us taking her back, us checking on her if she did happen to be in her bed for any length of time etc etc. Her sister is in the room with her, and we are just along the corridor and she has a night light. We were not shouting at her. Also ? we did not suddenly go from lying with her one night to utterly abandoning her the next! As I mentioned we?d gradually moved away from lying with her, to sitting next to her, to leaving her and checking regularly over a couple years. But things have just regressed recently.

Another thing to mention is that I?ve always been perfectly happy to devote a chunk of every evening to the bedtime routine, and whatever settling my 3 DCs required. They aren?t little robots, and I wouldn?t swap the precious hours I?ve spent with little bodies cosying up next to me in my bed. (Actually I have a brother and sister in law who envy us this, as after very successful sleep-training, their DCs now refuse to ever be snuggled over to sleep!!) I?ll never be a cry-it-out advocate, and feel no desire to ?show her who?s boss? or ?break her will? ? really I want to help her without doing these things. And get bedtime back to a happy peaceful time, that doesn?t drag on unreasonably, and encourage her to settle herself in the middle of the night without coming looking for help.

ANYWAY ? last night was OK. Quite late by the time she finally went over, but less crying, and more of her trying to think of good arguments in favour of us just lying with her! And one time when I checked her she said ?by the way, you?re late? cos she thought I?d taken too long, and I laughed and then she laughed too, which helped lighten the mood!! And only woke once briefly in the night.

Finally, I am grateful for all the replies, whether at one extreme or the other. All given me food for thought, and a few good ideas from those posters closer to the middle ground like myself. ExitPursuedByABear ? I actually love your idea to allow some snuggle time in the morning ? then if she appears in the middle of the night I could send her back to bed with the reassurance that it won?t be long till morning snuggle time. (We have been known to occasionally wake to find all 5 members of our family in one bed anyway!!)

Nothing like a good healthy discussion! And really lovely when people seem to genuinely care about other mumsnetters! Thanks folks!