...to have let my almost-6yr-old DD cry and wail for 3 and a half hours during the night because I wouldn't lie with her while she fell back to sleep?

[OhSoDespicableMe]

...this was after spending an hour and a half getting her to go to sleep in the first place, without myself or DH lying with her. She has always been a terrible sleeper, from the day she was born, and is a VERY active, full of energy, always-on-the-go sort of girl. And a drama queen and attention-seeker. And I love her dearly. But we've finally decided that it is not reasonable to lie with her while she falls asleep, and that she should be able to stay in bed and not come looking for us for a drink, trip to the loo (sometimes 4 or 5 trips in a row), to say she has a sore throat/tummy/toe etc etc etc etc, to ask for her music back on, less light/more light and so on for blooming hours on end!!

I never left her to cry it out as a baby - I hate the thought of this for babies who are too small to understand why they've been left alone and why Mummy won't come get them. But once DD was old enough to have decent understanding of things we started just sitting next to her while she fell asleep, and then later leaving her with music/night light etc. This was sort of going ok, although seldom straight forward. But things have now escalated way out of control. She's simply not getting enough sleep, nor are we. And she starts to stress about bedtime hours before she's due to go to bed. I hate seeing her worried or upset, and letting her cry for so long last night 9in between taking her back to bed millions of times) really went against my grain.

Any advice for me? Can any others who don't believe in cry-it-out etc reassure me that it's ok for a 6yr old to cry in order to learn to sleep in their own bed? Help!!

If your child is a terrible sleeper, have you tried putting her to bed a lot later when she is much more tired?

I understand why you thought it might help, so not slating you or going to say you were BU. However, I don't think that it would've or will teach her a thing and I think it'll perpetuate her problems with sleep. After a while of crying, her cortisol levels would be so high and increasing it would've been impossible for her to stop or be aware of any message you were trying to send. It's unlikely she got any kind of decent sleep and exhaustion due to poor sleep will just make it harder for her to sleep properly. It's a vicious circle you need to break, but I think that there are probably other ways of addressing her sleep problems (talking to her in the day, rewards, coming up with new routines etc) that are likely to be more effective in the long run. My 4 year old has very occasionally cried for me to go to him and stay while he falls asleep and I'll leave him, but he's usually asleep in under 10 minutes of that. Much longer and I'd go in because once it's reached hysteria or the point where it'll carry on for hours, there is no lesson you're teaching them.

Seconding the idea of having an earlier bedtime. I have a friend for whom it worked wonders with a very (hyper)active DD.

Stay strong tonight. We have phases where one or other of the kids will suddenly start crying at bedtime and it has amazed us how quickly the period of crying shortens - from 45 mins the first night, to 10 mins the next, to 15 seconds the next! Children learn very fast and it really will be worth it for her to feel confident that she can get to sleep without your help. Good luck!!

I had a whirring minded girl too! Oh the hours I spent...

I found this CD really really helped. It talks them gently through regulating breathing and then has a lovely story.

My dd never managed to stay awake for the whole 45 minutes of the CD - it was a godsend.

Just so you know she did 'grow out' of the cd (she's now 8) and we now use reading for 15 minutes, leaving the door open while she falls asleep (and then closing the door once she's over) instead. Reinforcing a routine (ie plumping pillows, placing teddies in position, making sure that drink was fresh etc etc) is all done is still really important to her.

But for me, I couldn't hear her cry (probably more down to my own childhood than any other reason) and this was a good compromise.

She'll still ask for me to lie with her as an extra special treat though - and that is fine with me.

there is something else you can try. she is 6 she should understand.

At bedtime when she is in bed, tell her that you want to chat. Tell her that it is bedtime and she must be in bed. (put it as a fact) Then tell her that she does have a choice, she can lay there and scream and shout or she can lay there and be quiet. Expalin that as her mummy you hope that she doesnt pick the screaming and shouting, because you love her and dont like to see her so upset, and you hope that she doesnt pick the screaming and shouting becuase you can tell that SHE doesnt really like it....but its bedtime, and no matter how much she screams and shouts nothing will change that.

Tell her that you are only downstairs/ in the other room and that you will keep her safe, but its bedtime and there is nothing you can do about that.

It wont rock her faith in you, there will always be things parents cant do anything about... ie 'i dont want it to be raining i want to play in the garden..' 'well, i cant stop it raining, but we can get dressed in nice warm clothes and wellies and play in the rain'

i hope this advice helps, this kind of approach works with my dd

Just thought of the other thing I did that really made a difference.

The first night that she did eventually fall asleep on her own I made her a little card saying thank you for being so grown up and put it next to her bed so that she would see it when she woke up.

It's still on her wall 2 years later.

Oh ElusiveCamel, everything you've said is what my heart tells me! While my head (and DH!) and other posters here tell me to stick at it. It's so hard!!

One of her big things is saying 'will you check me in 4 minutes mummy? No, no, make it 3 minutes' etc etc. I've always just said yes, cos she has no way of knowing how long I'm gone, and we have always gone in to check her periodically, but now I think she's lying waiting for someone to appear (if she actually stays in bed) rather than making any efforts to get sleepy. It's so frustrating! She says 'why can I not get sleepy?' and I say 'cos you won't give yourself the chance to!!!'.

MrsDistinctlyMintyMonetarism - the card idea sounds lovely. My DD would love that. And I'll take a look at the CD.

MateyMoooo - I've tried that kind of chat! I've talked this all through with her till I'm sick of the sound of my own voice! I think that's why we've gotten to the point we did last night.

Something that has worked with my son when he's wanted one of us to stay is to ask him how long he wants us to stay and then to set a timer on our mobile phone. He's quite a bit younger than her so not sure if it would help, but it seems to make him happy. He'll choose a number and then is pretty happy to let me go once it beeps.

I read this book and it worked really brillantly for us - ours was more of a co-sleeping problem and having to stay in the room until he had gone to sleep. It helped to strengthen my resolve but it was symapthetically written. It has chapters for older children too. I hope that tonight will be better for you.

she sounds just like my 6 year old dd
she has just been diagnosed with dyspraxia
has trouble shutting her brain off at night - she was coming downstairs alot and going to sleep in our bed then we were carrying her up to her bed when we went to bed
the last week we have been putting her straight in her bed which has worked great
routine for her is the most important thing
before she would cry and cry and get herself into aright state then we would have to give in and let her come into our bed we have a dd2 who is 3 her bedroom is next door, this week she has been really good
we get her in pyjamas upstairs, then teeth, then story then she reads with her light on for abit

Now that you've started don't let up or next time it'll be 4 hours. If you give in now the message you send out is that if she cries for long enough then you'll give up and let her in with you.

Talk to her about it and think about doing a reward chart. So talk her through exactly what the bedtime routine is and how she is going to do what all the big girls do and sleep by herself in her own bed, then when she does that she gets a smiley face on her reward chart and if she gets 3 smiley faces in a row she can have a treat.

Try to make the treat some special time with either you or your dh. Bribing them with material rewards just sets a precedent and actually, what is most valuable to children is special time spent with you. This could be baking cakes, or helping her to paint a picture, playing outside in the park or reading a story together.

Hopefully tonight will be much better for you.

Either accept that she really is anxious about something and just lie down with her until she falls asleep.

Or set a timer. Say you will check on her in 10 minutes. And do it. Absolutely do it- promises like that must be kept.

I went back in 10 minutes to my dd for ages- she needed the security, and it it no trouble at all.

She was poorly a couple of weeks ago, and when I went to say goodnight, she said "come and check on me in 10 minutes". She's 16!

And OP, I still check on my ds after 10 minutes. We have this thing now where he shouts "TEN!" to me as he's going to bed.

Work with her, come up with a routine that you are both happy with and which is achievable. So for tonight you could check on her every 10 minutes then the next night make it every 15.

If she stays in bed she can get one smiley.
If she doesn't shout or cry she can have another smiley
And if she stays in her bed all night she gets another. Breaking it down like this makes it much more achieveable.

could you go through a relaxation technique with her - once she has done it a few times she would have the tools to do it herself then a rewards system where she starts the night with 2 points amd each time she gets up and asks you to get her to sleep she loses a point - she could save the points towards a treat?

ooo and just remembered the kissing game - I think if you google it it would come up but it is a lovely sleep training technique

I have a friend whose child had sleeping problems right from newborn onwards, anyway she took her child to a chranial (not sure about spelling) osteopath. Wow - after a couple sessions her girl was fine, think she was about 2 years old when they went. The osteopath advised that trauma during birth can affect babies sleep etc. Something about the actual delivery has more impact on babies than we think. So maybe you may want to try that - good luck.

I have a 9 year old who goes through periods of not being able to settle and wants either me or DH to be with her. I think for her it is linked to anxiety - she is a bit of a worrier and often needs a 'winding down' conversation about whatever is on her mind, so I allow for this and get into bed with her to have it. What doesn't help is trying to rush things.

Other things that help

• a lava lamp which is quite hypnotic next to her bed - she stares at it when she's finding it hard to sleep!
• we have just put a fish tank in her room and that bit of company makes a difference
• relaxation in bed with her - we go through the whole body together from toes to face stretching and relaxing all her muscles.

I found it hard to sleep as a child and, whilst I see that you don't want her evenings hijacked and controlled, it's really easy to set up very negative connotations about sleep by doing what you are doing. There is something very scary about not being able to sleep when everyone else is - and I used to get quite frantic about being really tired the next day and not being able to cope.

My DD was like this recently. She claimed she didnt know how to sleep
But as there is no room in my bed (co sleeping with DTs atm) I had no choice but to get her in her bed. She now sleeps through no fuss.
You just have to stick to your guns.
I used a combo of explaining a dream is like making up your own story in your head, you play it out and bam you're sleeping. And she asks us to send her good dreams and asks us to check on her (but she's always asleep soon after getting into bed now)
My dd gets up at 6/6.30 school nights and after 7 on weekends, maybe you need to wake her up a bit earlier so she's more tired at night?
Do you have a routine like story before bed? I wouldn't recommend any hot milk etc if she plays the toilet card, I'm lucky that my dd has never wet the bed since she was out of nappies so don't need to worry there.

Good luck

busybee - my ds has always been a terrible sleeper, always. Yet his birth was a home birth, in stark contrast to his sister's stressful hospital birth. She's the good sleeper and always has been.

With my ds it's that 10 minutes when he's first put to bed when he finds himself on his own in the dark. It scares him and he starts to think about all his worries and anxieties. He now has a night light and a strict bedtime routine. We've phased out the reward chart now that he's settled.

Will she stay in bed for some kind of reward the next day? I would always try carrot before stick but if it didn't work I don't think you are unreasonable not to give into a 6 yr old because she cries! You wouldn't do it in the day so why at night.

Another thing I thought off is that with story/music tapes etc is it possible she's staying up late doing stuff? I would make the bedroom as sleepy --boring an environment as possible. Some soft toys and a few books maybe. You can't make her sleep but you can make her realise that she need to either sleep or read/play quietly in her room from lights out until morning. If there aren't to many stimulating things in her room she will probably learn that she may as well sleep.

We bought a baby monitor with a video function, and put it in our sons' room. Far from wanting company, my 7 year old fidgety, unable-to-sleep son now complains that we're always watching him and it's not fair!

Do you think it might help your daughter if she knew that you could still see her and watch over her without being in the room? I just wondered, after your comment about her lying awake and waiting for someone to appear?

My dd is six, and occassionally has a night like this. We play the "sleeping beauty" game, where we all pretend to be sleeping beauty, her in her bed, me in another room, but whoever stays asleep the longest is the real princess. If she stayed in bed for 2 weeks she got to buy a princess dress. It makes a game of being and staying in bed, and is much less painful for us all. Maybe a similar game would work with you?
I agree with the rest, stay strong even when you feel like pulling your hair out, she won't be needing you like this going off to uni so eventually it will click with her :)

Good luck OP. Have you tried any meditation CD's for kids. I have one for 4-7yr olds.. It seems to do the trick for my DS (2), he is a nightmare.

Stick with it, she will learn. Keep the faith and imagine how your world will be when she gets it!