...to have let my almost-6yr-old DD cry and wail for 3 and a half hours during the night because I wouldn't lie with her while she fell back to sleep?

[OhSoDespicableMe]

...this was after spending an hour and a half getting her to go to sleep in the first place, without myself or DH lying with her. She has always been a terrible sleeper, from the day she was born, and is a VERY active, full of energy, always-on-the-go sort of girl. And a drama queen and attention-seeker. And I love her dearly. But we've finally decided that it is not reasonable to lie with her while she falls asleep, and that she should be able to stay in bed and not come looking for us for a drink, trip to the loo (sometimes 4 or 5 trips in a row), to say she has a sore throat/tummy/toe etc etc etc etc, to ask for her music back on, less light/more light and so on for blooming hours on end!!

I never left her to cry it out as a baby - I hate the thought of this for babies who are too small to understand why they've been left alone and why Mummy won't come get them. But once DD was old enough to have decent understanding of things we started just sitting next to her while she fell asleep, and then later leaving her with music/night light etc. This was sort of going ok, although seldom straight forward. But things have now escalated way out of control. She's simply not getting enough sleep, nor are we. And she starts to stress about bedtime hours before she's due to go to bed. I hate seeing her worried or upset, and letting her cry for so long last night 9in between taking her back to bed millions of times) really went against my grain.

Any advice for me? Can any others who don't believe in cry-it-out etc reassure me that it's ok for a 6yr old to cry in order to learn to sleep in their own bed? Help!!

OP, well done for a good night. It is stressful when our little ones don't sleep and impacts not just them but us.

Sounds like you have a plan and it's working. I remember reading that going to sleep is something you need to learn how to do. Sounds like you are taking the right steps to giving your dd the proper wind down steps to help her learn this skill. You will get there in the end. I've heard it take 3 weeks to get your subconscious to adapt to something new. So just know that if you stick to your plan that you and your DD will be rewarded in the end. And I don't think you were being unreasonable to let her cry for 3.5 hours. When we sleep trained my daughter we had a few nights of her crying outside our door and asking to come in. By the third night she knew we weren't going to cave and now she goes down without much fuss and stays in her room.

Yes snapsnap - I was on that thread too. hehehe!
Quite pathetic.

I am horrified at the attitude by some posters towards a little girl they don't know and her mother.

You have one poster calling a 6yr old child an attention seeker and spoilt brat and another implying that the mother is cruel and heartless on the one hand and moddycoddling and airy fairy on another.

Wow, this really is Mumsnet at its best isn't it?

Just to clarify, this is a mother who has asked for advice about her 6 year old daughter whom we don't know.

Thank God when I posted about my 7yo ds waking with night terrors and having major separation issues I didn't get those same posters on my thread. Have you no idea what a traumatic and stressful event this is for the entire family and how your judgemental and vicious posts are actually making matters worse?

OP, my little boy started very suddenly with separation anxiety. He would follow me from room to room, he had big problems in going to bed and when he started his new school it was a nightmare. I cried buckets and often had to be comforted by other mums in the playground. I wrote a lot about what we went through in my blog but quite frankly it was a nightmare and like you, I was getting conflicting advice other whether to be harsh and leave him or comfort him.

The helplessness that you feel as a mother is tremendous and with so many people giving you different advice and warning you about consequences if you don't take their advice (he'll grow up spoilt and you'll make a rod for your own back/his problems will get worse and will affect his confidence and trust in you) you just don't know which way to turn. I turned to the professionals and found their advice to be brilliant. I went on a positive parenting course which I found out about through the schools Parent Support Adviser and it was brilliant.

In short they recommend an easy to follow routine with a time to talk over worries and anxieties before bedtime. They also told me to tell him that if he was worried about anything in the night he absolutely had permission to come and wake me up - the theory was that he was getting worried about not being able to see me whereas if he knew that he could, he would feel better, more relaxed and wouldn't need to. It worked and along with a reward chart and lots and lots of hugs, reassurance and praise we are slowly working through it.

ds is still sensitive and I still sometimes find him sat on his bed in tears telling me that he feels bad but doesn't know why. He now has a thing going on at school called A Time To Talk where he can discuss any worries or anxieties he has. It's been a long slow process and if I had read posters harsh comments during that time, I would have broken down. Being a parent is bloody hard work and emotionally draining and people would do well to remember that before posting judgemental crap that only serves to make the mother feel 100 times worse.

Good luck and I hope this has been of some use to you.

Not read the replies, but what I will say is, I HAD to leave my 2 year old cry it out. He was DREADFUL. He made me ill. He is now 9 & has no side effects other than a penchant for wearing football tops!

The funny thing is, people who are all strident about sending their children to bed, having a lovely evening to themselves, and never hearing a peep, think it's down to their excellent no-nonsense parenting that their child sleeps. But alas, it is luck. And if you were confronted with the alternative I don't think the certainties would survive long.

And I speak as someone whose child (at the moment!) sleeps unproblematically and without help.

For an old enough child crying it out is not damaging. Letting them not get enough sleep is. The OP is getting there and imo doing the best for her DD who will pretty soon sleep through and all this will be a distant memory.
Birds i dont think the little girl sounds scared, she sounds like she is acting up. A scared child should always be comforted. An attention seeking or tantruming child should be ignored and I dont know about you but I can always tell the difference with my children

No, it's down to my parenting. Sorry!

Well, it seems pretty futile to argue about it, pictish! So I won't bother.

snapsnap - I got some people telling me that my ds was only playing up and acting spoilt. I think only the parents know if the child is genuinely frightened or not. With ds he would shake and sob uncontrollably for a good 10 minutes.
He would often come down the stairs and dh would get mightily fed up with him and shout at him, telling him he was naughty and would be punished, but now I know that was completely the wrong thing to do and in fact it did make matters worse back then.
He was terrified to stay in bed and terrified to come down and risk our wrath. He chose to risk our wrath. I knew then that this was no joke.

I would highly recommend a Positive Parenting course to anyone and everyone. I thought I was a fairly competent parent, strict, disciplined yet fair. I learnt a LOT on that course and have now changed a lot of my parenting techniques. It's like having a weight lifted off your shoulders when you finally hit upon a reason why and a strategy of dealing with the problem that actually works.

i have never let any of mine cry it out and we co-slept when they were babies/toddlers BUT we still always had a consistent bedtime routine and tho i woudl give milk when needed, or a cuddle, reassurance we were still firm and consistent, as they got a bit older 18mths plus they started sleeping in a toddler bed in our room, they would start the night in there and during the night would often get back in with us, but we were firm and consistent, a cuddle, reassurance, or rapid return to their own bed as they got older, they gradually started sleeping through the night wihtout tears or leaving them to cry.

i would always offer reassurance and comfort to a young child but you can do that AND be clear on the boundaries adn that bedtime is for sleeping, when i had to i stayed with them as they went to sleep, ie when little, but as they got older i would just tuck them in and leave them and reassure as necessary, they all got their eventually and my 14mth old now goes down awake in our bed and goes off to sleep on her own, if she cries out i will go in and offer reassurance and then leave again. my elder four ranging from 3-12yrs all sleep in their own beds in their own rooms, we used the same strategy with all of them, reassurance as necessary but a reminder that its bedtime and time to sleep. a story and a cuddle at bedtime and then a story cd if they wanted but if they got up they were returned to bed and i always said i will be back in ten mins to give you a kiss etc, you can be firm and caring.

at this age i would have done rapid return and gone in and said its time to go to sleep. i think if you do this from a young age they will get there.

a 6yr old is playing you up because they have learnt that they can, i would make exceptions for a poorly child or one having nightmares etc as they are genuinely upset but at age 6 if you have had a good routine and been consistent then they shoudl know bedtime is bedtime and whilst i wouldnt leave a child to scream neither would i pander to it by laying with them, i woudl offer reassurance as necessary but i wont spend my evenings laying with a 6yr old until they go to sleep!

The OP doesn't mention her daughter being scared or having night terrors. Rhubarb you are talking about a clear issue.

She does talk about her daughter being needy and I think that's an issue too, though others don't.

Eyja my point is that not one of us is a trained child psychologist and some of the posts are doing more harm than good. There is a divided opinion here that is very very harsh with each side warning of dire consequences if their advice is not taken and actually condemning both mother and child!

I want to get it through to their thick skulls that this kind of advice is not only unhelpful but downright disgusting and nasty. It's bloody hard to know what to do best and this mother needs support and encouragement not belittling and insulting - to have her 6yo daughter called a spoilt brat? That's not necessary at all. How is that at all helpful?

Yes there are some issues here and I would strongly advise the OP to seek help outside of Mumsnet as this thread is just conflicting, confusing and patronising. Talk to the school Parents Support Advisor because no matter how this problem came about, it is a problem and you need proper, qualified advice on the best way to deal with it that causes the least stress to both yourself and your daughter.

With the greatest of respect, sometimes asking a bunch of other mums what they would do is not the best way to solve an issue like this.

Heh heh yes couldn't agree more.
Mumsnet is pretty terrible when it comes to sleep, feeding, working...

Can you give her something physical to hold. One of the best things at this age is they still have some susceptibilty to 'magic'.

When DD was 3 and went through a nervous stage her magic object was 'madgy blanks', an old baby blanket of mine than my grandmother knitted (that I grabbed out of the airing cupboard in desperation). We had a long conversation about all the love that was in the blanket and how it was like having a big long cuddle. DH and I had to 'fill it with love' every evening before bed and it kept her safe from monsters etc.

Just recently (at 6 years old) she has been having bad dreams and not wanting to sleep at all. I dug out of my jewellery box a cheap moonstone ring she hadn't seen before and we had a long discussion about the moon and how it was a magic ring. I had horrible nightmares too at her age and telling that I had been through the same thing made it easier for her. I also told her about my 'safe place' taht I go to in my head when I can't sleep. Its a castle by a river and we described it together and I told her I would meet her there in my dreams that night, but how I would be sad if she wasn't there. She got into this and started telling me where she would be and what she would be wearing, all with her eyes closed.

I also sat by her bed in the dark and helped her relax. Keeping my voice soft I get her to keep her eyes closed and her breaths long, slow and deep. Then I start at her toes, she has to stretch them out as far as she can and then relax them. Then her knees etc, up her body until we finish at her fingers. It gave her a sense of what it was to be completely relaxed like she is when she is asleep.

A combination of these worked with DD, I found shouting and getting cross just made her worse, wound her up more and made it more difficult for her to sleep.

I'm not a permissive parent in any other way-I am of the 'if you can move it, then its not hurt' school of parenting, but I was a sensitive child with a vivid imagination and I remember how terrified I was in my room at night in the dark. My mum listened to me when I was frightened and never told me to stop being silly (although she did stop me from reading ghost stories after 3pm) and that sympathy was the most comforting thing, I knew she was there for me and after a while the dreams went away.

You're damned if you do and you're damned if you don't.

Just look at this thread - look at all the posters who veer off to extremes either one way or the other. If you were a new mum needing advice, how would you feel? Neither side is willing to back down or even show a little consideration to a mum going through a tough time and who is probably regretting her decision to ask on Mumsnet.

She can't possibly take both sides here, yet both are absolutely insistent that they are right. So she risks a barrage of insults from either side.

Ridiculous.

Oh ffs! Since when do we need trained psychologists to sort out run of the mill sleep problems with our kids?! The wee girl has had her mum at her back and call at bedtime for six years, and her mum (rightly) no longer wishes to comply. That's all!

All the OP can be expected to do is take the advice that suits her, and dismiss the advice that doesn't! That's what we all do! She wanted opinons and she got them.

All this talk of parenting courses and read-my-blog. Jesus Kerrrr-ist! It's a common problem that will be solved with common bloody sense!

No that's not true, Rhubarb. There are plenty of posts where people have said what they've done with their children, that they like boundaries or whatever but understand this feeling and so have helped their children cope.

Right pictish, only everybody seems to think that THEIR advice is the one full of common sense and if the mother doesn't take it then her child will grow up to be a spoilt brat or will be affected for life by the betrayal of her own mother.

Read the thread, read the insults and the judgements concerning both mother and child. Remember, we don't know this mother or this child.

I'm not saying that every post has been unhelpful, there are those who have taken a middle ground or offered support and consolation. And btw my blog was just to offer consolation that I had been there, done that and got the grey hairs to prove it. It helps knowing that others have been through similar and come out the other end. What doesn't help are the nasty posts that then turn into catfights between posters.

No you don't need child psychologists but it sometimes helps - it helped me no end - to speak to someone professional. I phoned Young Minds who gave me very very helpful advice and their advice is based on years of experience with children so I would trust them more than the mums of Mumsnet who think that after having one child they are parenting professionals who know best.

Well I think most people looking for advise would look at the advise given and then do what they think is best for their child. No one poster/child/course has every answer for every child.
Personally when I answer posts I look at the information given and from my experience, say what I would do. Invariably its often different to what others would do.

Re why the OP's daughter is needy, some just are. My DD1 is very needy and somewhat high maintenence. It can be challenging between striking the balance between giving her all the love and attention she needs and what she wants. 100% of me 100% of the time would not be enough.

I agree that the poster who used the words spoiled brat was offensive.

TheRhubarb Offering the middle ground is sometimes just sitting on the fence, the OP wanted opinions, she got them. Clearly having left her DD to cry for 3.5 hours she was at the end of her tether and she and her DD need this behaviour to stop.

I agree

Of course everyone thinks THEIR advice is best, and of course it turns into a debate - it would be a dull board if it didn't wouldn't it?

Point is, the OP can apply her own brand of common sense to the circumstances having read both sides of the debate can't she?

No need for dismissing the advice and opinions of experienced parents because they're not psychologists fgs. You sound way OTT. Again, this is acommon problem amongst young children and can be solved without taking a bloody parenting course!

If anyone is being pushy about doing things a certain way, it's you tbh.

God, remind me never to come to MN for advice if I ever have kids.

Like others have said, we don't know the mother or the child. Whatever parenting decisions the OP has made in the past may or may not have led them to this point, but so what? She's asking for advice NOW, not for advice on what she should have done in the past.

I was a very anxious child and slept badly til I was at least 16. I didn't do much screaming but I did sit up under the covers half the night. Nothing to do with being spoilt, I just had a massively over-active imagination and once my brain went on one train of thought I couldn't shake it.

I don't think leaving the little girl in distress for 3 hours is going to work. Drama queens rarely carry on that long if all they're doing is making a fuss.

Yes but when posters cast judgement on you and your child, whilst you are going through a very difficult time, it can be a bit much and I know if I had received such responses whilst I was at my wits end with ds I would have sobbed. That's just me though. Still think some of the posts are completely unnecessary and hope the OP takes the advice she needs and disregards the rest.

Yeah thanks pictish, that's me all over, always OTT I am. Of all the posts here mine is THE most OTT.