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AIBU?

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Original poster

We are being watched !!

419 replies

domesticgodessintraining · 04/02/2012 18:19

A friend just called from the Middle East to say that the bored desperate housewives of Dubai are slagging us off ........

www.expatwoman.com/forum/messages.aspx?TopicID=171798

OP posts:
GetOrfMoiiLand · 09/02/2012 12:54

"But you don't buy people any more than in the UK when you buy a business and they TUPE across - not for a moment suggesting that some people don't act as though they can."

To liken the rights of migrant workers in UAE to those in the UK who are TUPEd across when a company is sold to another is ridiculous.

TUPE rules in the UK do not mean that you give your passport to your employer and HAVE to stay there for x amount of years with no chance of leaving because you need to work off the debt you accrued in order to pay to get the ghastly job in the first place.

SaraBellumHertz · 09/02/2012 13:17

Apologies for shouting but: IT IS ILLEGAL TO HOLD PASSPORTS.

I'm not sure whether this is deliberately being ignored or not.

I'm not saying that it doesn't happen. It does, but to blame the country who has put in place legislation which makes such practices illegal, has provided an accessible means to challenge such practices and hands out severe sentences for breaching the law, rather than the dodgy practices of some individuals seems a little unreasonable.

bijou3 · 09/02/2012 14:29

It is illegal but there are companies and individuals that still retain passports.

Why do you think people are lying when they share their experiences? People do get arrested for not wearing the correct clothing, for drinking out of the designated areas, maids are abused the list goes on. You only have to read the overheard in Mc Donald?s thread on Expat Woman to see the level of racism directed at Filipino or Indian workers from British women over there. Just because YOU may not have heard of such thing happening does not mean that they don?t. There have been so many stories in the UK press of women being deported and having to leave their children in the UAE, a man was killed by police officers in a UAE jail and the couple jailed for kissing are some of the things that are published in the media so many other things are hidden. Dubai is not for everyone nobody?s criticizing YOU or your choice to live there.

SaraBellumHertz · 09/02/2012 15:06

I do not assume people are lying when they share their experiences.

I do assume people don't know what they are talking about when the post factually incorrect information.

The UAE now legislates against the behaviour which you have mentioned. People break the laws in all countries. I'm genuinely interested to know why for example unlawful employment practices in the UK are the fault of the individual employer but in the UAE they are the fault of the state?

HillyWallaby · 09/02/2012 15:08

But that's just it Bijou - this thread is full of people criticising us! (the rest of it I have no issue with.)

MissingHaversham · 09/02/2012 15:41

If the state introduces laws for the sake of appearance and then fails to prosecute them consistently, turns a blind eye or only calls on the law when it suits them to do so then they are responsible for the situation.

LineRunner · 09/02/2012 16:38

I had left this thread a while back, but just came back for a look.

MissHaversham's point is very important. Any state can introduce lovely-looking laws, but they are merely cosmetic if the same state is not prepared to enforce them. When this happens in the arena of human rights, the consequences for the vulnerable can be horrendous.

I would say that the current feeling in Britain is one of general disgust that the Police have been found not enforcing and obeying the law over phone hacking and monitoring protest groups. There are inquiries happening at the highest levels, arrests have been made, metaphorical heads have rolled and will continue to roll, and the press has reported on this widely and I can discuss it freely.

In the UAE, in contrast, I would worry about even criticising the state, let alone joining the local chapter of, say, Amnesty International and demanding change. In fact I am a bit worried about the woman in the UAE posting on here who are even the slighest bit critical of some of the things that happen out there. Wasn't that why the thread was deleted on EW?

Things are different in the UAE in this regard, and not for the better.

AmberLeaf · 09/02/2012 16:58

Would you really have more respect for people if they said that Amberleaf? Really? Only forgive me - but before, I thought it was the cynical way that we are prepared to shelve our morals and turn a blind eye to gross injustice while we all make a fast buck that you so detested about us

I would respect the honesty in coming out and saying that straight not the actions.

HillyWallaby · 09/02/2012 17:38

Really? It's funny. It didn't really sound that way earlier. It sounded like you didn't even think we were capable of thinking that deeply about it, while there was a new handbag to be had.

LineRunner · 09/02/2012 17:41

I had hoped to be having a really good debate about human rights.

HillyWallaby · 09/02/2012 17:42

Yes, the mods are very trigger happy on EW. Ridiculously so. It's quite a culture shock after spending so much time on MN. Grin

HillyWallaby · 09/02/2012 17:47

I'm not sure it's all a fear of the establishment though. Remember, it is incredibly multi-cultural here - there is barely a race or a religion or a nationality not represented, and sometimes people speak without thinking about how what they say might be perceived by others, and the paranoia about offence being given/taken is huge. The ethos of EW is 'Be nice, be dull, be safe.'

Actually, I made that last bit up. Grin (but if could be true.)

HillyWallaby · 09/02/2012 17:50

Well so had all of us LineRunner, but the Jumeirah Jane Bashing got in the way.

GiserableMitt · 09/02/2012 17:59

Ok, I shall stick my head above the parapet then.

I live in the UAE and have done for quite a few years. There are a lot of things that go on here that I don't like.

I live my life trying not to do harm to others. I see that there are many people around me who are nowhere near as lucky as I am. I try to help them as much as I can, however I will not put the safety of my family in jeopardy.

I do see the opportunities that living in this country afford my family. Although I could take it or leave it my kids love it here, in fact it's all DS has known. My kids are not expat brats. We don't have a maid and each child has a list of chores, pretty much like most other kids around the world.

As I said, there are many things that I don't like. I try not to add to the problems of those who are disadvantaged and do try to make positive changes wherever I can. However, my kids and I have a great quality of life. Coupled with the fact that we make good money I am happy to remain here for the time being.
To anyone who can honestly say, hand on heart, that would jack it all in for their principles then I salute you - you are the most privileged person I know.

LineRunner · 09/02/2012 18:03

If we can agree to try to avoid bashing on the one hand and defensive ire on the other, I would like to ask the question, is it possible for a UK national in the UAE to be a member of Amnesty International?

Could I also make the point that it is entirely possible to live in a country and never be aware of its human rights record, largely because of its self-image protrayed in the local media. I have friends who have lived in or visited Israel for long periods of time and claim never to have seen or heard anything about human rights issues in respect of Palestinians whilst they were there.

HillyWallaby · 09/02/2012 18:04

Hear Hear GiserableMitt.

GiserableMitt · 09/02/2012 18:18

LineRunner, I guess it is possible, but if you live in the UAE you have to be pretty dense not to be aware of the awful situations that exist here.
There are many campaigns aimed at helping those who are not as fortunate as us and to be honest, I have to say that most people I know support these campaigns.
There is a breed of expats in the UAE who come across as completely odious. French & Saunders did a sketch of "expats" in the Gulf which, while bloody hilarious , was also toe-curlingly embarrassing.
It did encompass all that was distasteful with the "western" expat years ago and while this mentality still exists it generally not to do with European/US/Canadian/Australian/NZ expats any longer but more to do with Arabs (not necessarily Emiratis).

WRT Israel, it's totally the other way round here. Israel is not a recognised nation here (local maps do not show Israel). Palestine however is, and Palestinians are recognised here, although maybw not elsewhere.

sozzledchops · 09/02/2012 20:23

I've lived in Israel and I find it hard to believe that anyone spending any amount of time there other than a jolly weekend in Eilat would be unaware of these human rights issues.

LineRunner · 09/02/2012 20:32

If everyone who lives or who had lived in a country with human rights issues were really aware of those human rights issues, then there wouldn't be those human rights issues.

Human rights abuses only exist because they are allowed to exist, wittingly or unwittingly.

LineRunner · 09/02/2012 20:34

I gave Israel as an obvious example.

There are plenty of other countries.

AmberLeaf · 09/02/2012 20:46

Really? It's funny. It didn't really sound that way earlier. It sounded like you didn't even think we were capable of thinking that deeply about it, while there was a new handbag to be had

Yes really.

Id rather someone came on here and said

'yes I know what goes on but im making good money, so im turning a blind eye because this lifestyle suits me'

Id stil think that person was morally questionable, but it would be better than someone denying what goes on and their part in it.

sozzledchops · 10/02/2012 01:00

So Linerunner, your just making it up as you go then picking any country out of the air to get a rise out of some women living in the UAE or whatever it's called.

You really need to get over yourselves, with all the judgemental, pious crap. We turned down a job in Dubai for many of the reasons mentioned here as I didn't think it would be for me. That's a lot different from judging other people who made a different choice. I bet you all live your lives squeaky clean with your houses full of all the crap made in China or from some sweat shop in India, but that's different. Drink your tea, the leaves picked by some woman earning 20p a day or whatever (do you rant about how she should be getting at least £6 odd an hour like if she was picking tea in the UK. Probably not but take your cheap sniggering shots at someone else.

LineRunner · 10/02/2012 01:02

No, Sozzled, no I'm not doing that.

I'm sorry you are so angry.

LineRunner · 10/02/2012 01:03

You might have confused me with someone else on this thread.

SaraBellumHertz · 10/02/2012 01:24

I don't know whether a gulf national could join amnesty.

I do know that incidents of HR abuses are reported in the press.

In 2008 there was a hard hitting media campaign, financed by a Saudi company targeting the abuse of domestic workers (on ipad so cant link but google adverts target domestic abuse if you're interested) The adverts were widely shown on TV and in print. It is simply not true to say that these matters can't or aren't discussed.

I don't think anyone is denying what goes on. But to suggest, for example that abuse of staff, or withholding of passports is state sanctioned is incorrect.