We are being watched !!

[domesticgodessintraining]

A friend just called from the Middle East to say that the bored desperate housewives of Dubai are slagging us off ........

www.expatwoman.com/forum/messages.aspx?TopicID=171798

Amberleaf One of my children is still in the UK, (in education) and one of them will be again, (in education) quite soon, actually.

But in answer to your question, two reasons:

1. it's because our money DOESN'T go further at home. That's the difference.

2. because we live on the salary of a banking professional, not the salary of a cleaner or a labourer. But if DH and and I were hoping to work abroad with our cleaning and labouring skills and send our money home to our children, we wouldn't be doing it in the ME, because the rate of pay for low-skilled manual work is better at home than in the ME, so why would we?

Simple economics.

I am sure if that happened bijou we just wouldn't go. Not all the while there is a similar job in the UK, or out of work benefits paid more. But that is not the case at the moment and some people still prefer to work rather than not work, even if it means going to Dubai to do it.

bijou, are you telling me my housekeeper is lying about the land she has bought?

don't get me wrong, I very much doubt the bits of land are very big. And there are a lot of side issues about which brother looks after the cow on this bit of land and who gets to live in the 'house' on that bit of land. But (though I don't believe I have mentioned anyone buying land on this thread) she tells me that is what she has done. Along with paying her niece's college fees and supporting elderly parents (more saga, there)

But you don't have to pay 'according to passport', and you don't have to be paid according to passport (though people from the developing world are handicapped in going for the best paid jobs in that they generally need to have studied outside their country; not because of 'passport' but because, eg, a dental degree from the Philippines is not equivalent to a 'Western' dental degree.)

And there is culture here; sorry you weren't able to find it. I do think it must be difficult for non-working wives as the opportunities to get to know Emiratis are few and far between outside of the office.

And getorf, yes there are nasty people here; I'm sorry you found yourself living with one. But you don't buy people any more than in the UK when you buy a business and they TUPE across - not for a moment suggesting that some people don't act as though they can.

I'm not kidding myself at all as regards what some maids can do with their money if they want.

One of the pakistani guys that works with my DH on a low wage (maybe £900 PCM) saw some photos of our UK home on DH's computer. When DH told him it was our home he was genuinely devastated for us, what with our poky rooms and (his words) no servants quarters (victorian townhouse no land). He then whipped out his phone and showed DH the house that he was being finished for his family, it was monumental But of course things are not comparable across continents.

Bijou the cultural foundation in Dubai offers fascinating breakfasts where you have the opportunity to discuss cultural issues with local women. The grand mosque in Abu Dhabi is without a doubt one of the most beautiful buildings I've ever visited.

The scenery is also stunning in many parts of the UAE, camping in the empty quarter, kayaking round the mangroves which are home to some of the largest wild flamingo colonies in the world, there are literally thousands of small islands to be explored by boat around the coastline, Hatta pools, the forts in al ain.

I have also found the experience of being welcomed into what has traditionally been seen as a closed community to be enlightening.

Hilly I think the problem is more that it wasn't the best analogy. Additionally, you also seemed to be comparing all immigrants to Dubai to the immigrant communities in the UK you mentioned- if you weren't, your wording is at fault. But the people you mention often made up the most disadvantaged communities, while Westerners in Dubai don't. Additionally, the stuff about immigrants having to go where the work is was a bit disingenuous, as again your situation is totally different to third world workers. Even if you can't find any work at all at home, which I'm sure is true for some of you eg those in construction, there's a safety net here which would keep body and soul together. That's not true for the third world. None of this is to suggest you shouldn't be there, not at all. Just that some Dubai workers have to be there in order to survive, and others don't.

Regarding British workers leaving their kids in the UK, the difference is that Westerners are more likely to have a choice. Hilly opting to leave her child in the UK for school isn't remotely comparable to a Filipina maid who couldn't come if she brought hers with her.

DG please do point me to the exact place where anyone has said you can't discuss anything Dubai related without mentioning how lucky you are.

Sandinmyshoes nobody said it wasn't still happening in the UK, and indeed I've met several women professionally who were trafficked. This is just whataboutery, though.

I disagree it is whatabouterry. It is relevant to point out that these problems exist universally, not in an effort to excuse or detract from what happens in the UAE but in order to point out the hypocrisy and futility of saying "I would never go there because of the ethics".

The fact is the rules in the UAE for illegally employing domestic workers are incredibly strict and the punishments draconian (more so for the employer) and the chances of getting caught are actually fairly high. Unlike in the UK. Sadly however, as with everywhere people act illegally.

I like life in the UAE. It is culturally diverse, exceptionally safe and provides a good environment for my DC's to grow up in. Whilst I dont think it is accurate to say DH and I couldnt work in the UK we certainly couldn't earn the salaries we do, nor would we have been afforded the career opportunities in our early 30's that we have been here.

So being here isn't my number one choice, though I do prefer it to the UK, but it is allows us to build our careers and save enough money so that we can then make real choices about what to do with our lives.

I accept that it is not for everyone but I find the narrow minded view of a whole country, based on numerous inaccuracies and anti Islamic / UAE sentiment from women who profess to be open minded and non judgemental a little depressing.

I hate this phrase but I think it sums Dubai up perfectly ?chocolate covered shit!!?

Well yes I know all that, and you are right of course - but what of it? Really - this thread was not supposed to be 'let's all sit and reflect gratefully on how a few of us in this life are so much luckier than the majority.' We already know that, and it applies to all of us on this thread - all of us on MN probably - not just the ones living in the Gulf!

So why do we keep having these discussions? What do they achieve, really? Is the purpose of them purely to make relatively affluent white women feel shallow and greedy, or is there an actual constructive point to be made?

If the richer expats were expected to employ the domestic workers full-time at rates more in line with UK salaries they just would not use them - it would be impossible. Do the workers want that? No. A bit of something is better than a lot of nothing at all.

If the richer expats were guilted into not using maids at all would the workers want that? No. Their choices would be limited to Arabs who pay them worse and treat them worse, or staying at home and being unemployed.

We can't change it. It is rather arrogant to think we can. Perhaps the anger should be directed at corrupt governments who divert funds and mismanage their countries economies while their people starve, rather than at a bunch of English women who need babysitters and quite like having their floors mopped for them.

That was to Flangelina BTW

hahahah I just found this......

New Money Jane
Her previous life back home was relatively simple and modest until the 'Dear Husband' found a job here in the desertscape and suddenly both of them transformed their lifestyle. Personifies arrogance, name drops at every opportunity and queues up without shame at the Horse Races for the Ahlan! Mag phototaking sessions. She takes the maid for Spinneys shopping trips to push the trolley and to do the general housekeeping ('I don't do domestics darling!')

Ensures the house is spic and span ('Our maid scrubs the tiles, wipes the roof tiles and lives in a two-by-four room but we make sure she is very much a part of the family!') and religiously attends coffee mornings at the Lime Tree Cafe.

This Jane is generally terrified of moving back home to her modest upbringing and enjoys the bubble life of Dubai. Loses the ability of holding deep conversation and will eventually wither away into insignificance.

Where was that taken from dgit?

All this talk of maids is irrelevant when we are talking the place is constructed by true slave labour, who paid to come, have their passports taken away and have to work for years to pay off the debt they accrued. Added to the fact that many, many of the property investors are criminals who sell drugs and traffick women. You can talk it up all you want......how you are doing fillipinos a favour and all that. It is NASTY! I would not foot in the place.

Sara the fact that someone lives in a country where there is slavery (ie all of them really) doesn't make them a hypocrite for being critical of people who choose to move to one which is still being built on effective slave labour. It would only be hypocritical if the person denied the existence of slavery in their own country, or was benefitting from slavery in Dubai themself but felt others shouldn't. Let's not pretend the scale of the problem is the same everywhere, or that there's no way to quantify this. Additionally, you have chosen to go to Dubai, whereas not all British people have the option of emigration. We're all allowed to move within the EU of course, but there are various practical reasons why a person might be unable to do so. And of course, being a hypocrite doesn't necessarily make one wrong.

Its interesting to read your comments about what brought you to Dubai. I wonder whether the number of Western expats in your position is greater than those who can't find work anywhere else.

Hilly we keep having discussions because this is MN, that's what we do. We analyse the shit out of everything. One of the reasons this discussion is continuing is because you keep contributing. If you want it to end, you know what you can do to help achieve that. I myself made most of the other points you make, earlier in the thread. But let's not pretend that posting on here and lobbying governments are somehow mutually exclusive.

How do you know the property developers sell drugs and traffic women?

Also, surely there are plenty of those in Spain, or Russia, even the UK come to that - so where are you happy to go?

Not the developers - the investors! I can find you many a link to the fact Dubai is built on the proceeds of crime. The developers are just guilty of treating their employees like slaves, probably not illegal in Dubai, but just as loathsome.

flangelina I don't think I've ever met anyone who couldn't get work in the UK, another of those disparaging myths spread to make others feel better about themselves.

Most people I know came here on promotion from existing jobs, allowing their companies to expand into the region. The gulf is no longer a hardship posting and so recruiters have their pick of candidates. That being said I know many drs, lawyers, pilots who came here who will be able to transfer back to the UK as consultants, partners and training captains years earlier than they might have attained that level had they continued their careers in the UK.

But like I said, I don't love the place (despite apparently having become the unofficial cheerleader of the place ) but it works very well for young families, we are more than happy here.

hilly I think the fact is people love to hate the UAE. Especially on MN. The irony of a group of self proclaimed liberals trashing an entire country and culture for being racist and oppressive shilst spouting daily mail style anti islamic nonsense appears to be lost.

The talk of 'slave labour' really gets to me.

1. Slaves did not have a choice with what they did/where they went
2. Just because someone is earning less than the minimum wage in the UK, this is totally irrelevant to anything! They are not working in the UK, from the UK, or have any plans to go to the UK! They are working for DOUBLE the wage that they would get (if they could find work) in their home countries. They have accomodation and food provided for them in most cases. Their salaries are therefore sent straight home.
3. PS We visit India quite often and literally have people begging us to take them back with us for work.

I think people who have never visited a third world country (and have their in built perceptions of what Dubai is like and slave culture etc) have no idea of the reality that Dubai is providing a lot of work for a lot of people.

let's talk about this. What is going to happen to these people when all the towers are built?? where will they work? what will they do? how will they support their families? You need to look at the bigger picture here!

It is nothing to do with morals or anything else. And for most people living here who see the guys out working in the heat etc, they carry extra juices/water/biscuits in their car and stop and give them to the guys out there. FYI there is no working between 12pm and 3pm in the summer months and this is very strictly adhered to.

Sorry Porto I did know you meant investors, it was just a slip of the brain on my part!

Look, I think this has turned into something where half of you think the other half of us are actually defending the archaic working and living conditions some of these labourers endure, and that we are indifferent to the kind of grinding poverty they are trying to escape. That is not so, and I think that we who live in the Gulf will be rather more aware of it on a daily basis, than you lot sitting at home tut-tutting over your specs at your broadsheet newspapers. But do you think any of that will change any time soon if we refused to come here?

Be furious about it by all means, but all this vitriol dished out on MN at the women who come here with their husbands and families to earn a living is misdirected. The whole of the developing world suffers from the same problems/practices as the gulf states - it's just that they suddenly have obscene amounts of money are developing quicker than most, so it is more polarised and obvious. There will be expats living in very similar conditions in Nigeria or India or anywhere really - but for some reason they do not seem to attract the same level of contempt.

Some of the spiteful and snarky comments thrown around in a sweeping way about the expat women are very unfair, and based on half-baked ideas by people who have never been here. Yes, there are a fair few spoilt, materialistic, shallow, self-absorbed, arriviste WAG types here - but let's face it, you don't need to come to the Gulf to find them!

The problem you often find here is that the 'western' expats are very much thrown together and live cheek by jowl in a way that they probably would not at home. So you will have someone who lives here reluctantly because of the recession at home, living month by month with little disposable income and a second hand saloon car, living next door to someone who is very well set up, full-time housemaid even if the wife does not work (or sometimes husband - yes I have seen SAHDs here) a much better, more expensive school paid by their employers, eating out in all the best hotels, driving a brand new Lexus 4X4, having a whale of a time socially, and swanning off to the Maldives for Christmas and Easter. People get bitter and chippy about it. There is a 'them and us' divide among expats in the Gulf, in just the same way as there is at home, but your nose can be rubbed in it a bit more here.

But as far as I can tell, most of us just normal, average, well-balanced and pleasant!

I lived in the UAE for years so I am actually talking from experience. The UAE has the morals of a hyena and you know it, you know about all the stuff that goes on there but you just don?t want to admit it or even see it because it suits you to live in your bubble.

www.reuters.com/article/2012/01/25/us-emirates-rights-idUSTRE80O1ZS20120125

Okay, 2 people have mentioned 'anti Islamic' sentiments on this thread. I probably haven't read every single post, but I haven't yet yet seen anything anti Islamic, so why throw that into the argument? Being unsupportive of the practices of a government in an Islamic country does NOT make a person anti Islamic and I suspect the people who have thrown this into their posts are perfectly aware of that and are just stirring.

Well it obviously suited you too Bijou.

But Bijou yes, I do like living in my bubble, thanks. It doesn't mean I am in denial about what is going on outside it! I have not at any point tried to defend or justify the morality or lack of, in the Gulf states. (I'm not in UAE remember) I know exactly what kind of things you are talking about, the things we see/hear every day that make us go or or and they suck. But they are not my fault, and I cannot change them. I don't see why I should become a target for criticism beause of that.

Sara someone mentioned on this thread not being able to get work in the UK because of being in construction. I know there's not much going in that field at the moment, but otherwise no idea about recruitment for the industry.

OriginallyBM there's really quite a lot wrong with that post. For one thing, the fact that someone went voluntarily doesn't make them not a slave. People get tricked about what they'll be doing when they arrive. That's the case for a lot of the trafficked sex slaves in the UK too, since some of you are so keen to talk about what happens elsewhere in the world. Many of them pay money for passage, visas etc, and are told they'll be waitressing or whatever, so they go freely. Then they get here and have their passports taken, have no control over their labour, and are told they must work until they've paid their debt. This model is common globally, and is certainly not unknown in Dubai. Its slavery, like it or not. And the possibility of someone starving or being exploited in some other way if they are removed from their current situation doesn't mean they're not a slave.

I haven't look at the published material yet by reputable human rights organizations such as Stop The Traffik and Amnesty International on the UAE and Dubai in particular.

I shall do that today and report back.

I am also dismayed at the accusation of 'anti Islamic' sentiment. This is like challenging Israel on its human rights record eg asking what happened to Mordechai Vanunu or is happening in East Jerusalem and being called 'anti Semitic'.