We are being watched !!

[domesticgodessintraining]

A friend just called from the Middle East to say that the bored desperate housewives of Dubai are slagging us off ........

www.expatwoman.com/forum/messages.aspx?TopicID=171798

I've said that I am more privileged than the maids here; so are you I imagine.

What more do you want me to do or say?

My previous post was to Flangelina btw.

Flangelina, next time you set up a school, hospital, social security, stimulate the entire economy etc in the Philippines give me a call.

Nobody said you had to, Desertgirl. Just that the portrait some of you were drawing was rather one sided. Several of you had no problem highlighting that Dubai maids are doing much better than most of their compatriots, which is true. But its only half the picture. If their circumstances compared to other Filipinas are relevant to the discussion (and I didn't see you telling anyone they weren't) than so are their circumstances compared to yours. You can't have it both ways. hence my request.

As for the whataboutery, congratulations on only bringing it in in the final sentence. But that's as far as the compliment goes, I'm afraid. The key difference, and the one which totally undermines your point, is that I'm not posting about how lots of the people who are worse off than me are still better off than lots of their compatriots, then kicking off when someone points out that they're still worse off than me. If I was, you'd have a point.

Ooh, I wasn't expecting all this defensive whataboutery how dare you diss me when you haven't saved all the world's poor yet, so early in the day. Good fun to watch the spluttering outrage, though. Thanks to GiserableMitt for being willing to engage a bit. Fair play to you.

ASD, you have no way of knowing how many hospitals I've set up in the Phillippines or indeed anywhere else. Although even if it were my life's work to destroy third world schools and health facilities, that wouldn't actually have anything to do with any of the issues I've posted about, would it?

Flangelina, I don't think you have understood the conversation. I don't think anyone is doing that to say 'oh isn't it marvellous they are better off than us', they are saying what they say to point out why the maids want to come and work here - in response to everyone who suggests we shouldn't employ them.

DG we'll have to agree to disagree. If you look back, you'll see that my first posts in this thread were to explain that refusing to employ maids isn't going to help them. I think I was one of the first to make that point, in fact. However, we then had an emphasis on what great opportunities the maids are getting compared to what they'd get elsewhere, and how the expat presence makes things so much better, with no acknowledgment of the way in which this system benefits the more privileged expats (and indeed the Emiratis, although I don't think any of them have posted). That's unbalanced, hence the need for some correction. I'm not sure why this seems to be personally offensive to some of you?

Flangelina, the offensive bit is the suggestion that we can't discuss anything without having to bang on about how lucky we are.

"Oh, expats have helped the county develop its infrastructure - but the expats are so lucky"

"Oh, expats offer better employment terms than locals (generally) - but the expats are so lucky"

It is not relevant and it is really rather insulting to claim that we don't appreciate it (as you very clearly did).

DG nobody has said you can't discuss anything without saying how lucky you are. That's just plain untrue. There are any number of Dubai related discussions where you mentioning how fortunate you are compared to your maids would be totally irrelevant. Its just that this isn't one of them.

I wasn't implying anything of the sort FB - I was merely pointing out that most immigrants or economic migrants (of which I am now one) have rarely been in a position historically to be too idealistic or choosy about where they go to accept lucrative work. Nothing has changed there. Many people (including relatively affluent British people in 2012) have to do what they have to do to avoid being unemployed or over-stretched at home. It's all very well knocking people for 'choosing to come' to a place full of blatant inequalities, but having lofty principles does not pay the bills. However people are treated once they are here, no-one is dragged onto a slave ship and forced to come. It's not going to be stop being tough on those at the bottom of the heap just because a handful of British people stop coming out of a sense of outrage or embarrassment at being treated better than many.

So comparing it to 'No dogs, no Blacks, no Irish' of the 1950's and 60's in Britain, should they have stayed at home on ethical grounds? Remained steadfastly unemployed but with their principles and pride intact, and knowing that at least they were not contributing the economy of a country where they had few rights and garnered little respect?

I'm not knocking anyone for choosing to come Hilly, and indeed as an immigration lawyer by training, I probably have more sympathy with migrants of any kind than the average. However, you did say that the same accusation could be extended to various immigrant groups who chose to move to the UK in the 50s. And the situation simply wasn't the same, or even close.

I think you were taking me rather too literally then. I was merely using it as an analogy, not saying that the situations were the same. But the principle is the same.

TBh, i'd say many expats living in these countries and in close contact with these workers brought in from poor third world countries actually have a better understanding of what these women deal with and why they do what they do to try and make sure they and their families escape the poverty in their home countries, than most folk back home in Britain. You can be sure we realise how privileged we are in comparison and how lucky we are in where we were born. I don't see any expats on this thread saying different.

Well there you go Flangelina, that is where we do have to disagree.

In real terms of course I'm immensely more privileged than my maid, but then if I'm honest I am by virtue of my education and career choices immensely more privileged than most "domestic workers" in the UK.

However comparatively speaking my maid pays for 4 nieces and nephews to be schooled, has bought a business outright and also built a home for her sister in her home country. She is currently saving for another shop and to build another house. The day I can do the same in my home country I shall be very happy.

The issue of domestic staff wages is a balancing act as well.This may be very contentious, but we all learn pretty quickly when we get here that it is frowned upon, and ultimately damaging to start paying way more than the expected local rate for a job. As it has been pointed out many times on this thread and others, most of us would not spontaneously combust if we suddenly had to start sweeping our own floors, so if a precedent was set for much higher wages and the maids started to demand it/expect it, the work would dry up pretty sharpish, ohter than for those in very demanding and highly paid jobs who would be unable to function without the help at home.

Being here involves constantly assessing our financial situation/lifestyle v. being at home, and whilst some expats are pretty rich, many are not - not by a long, long way. But they can manage to employ a cleaner a couple of times a week whilst the rates are relatively low compared to the UK. If they reach that tipping point where something becomes an unaffordable luxury they will just stop. I'm not saying it's wrong or right - it just is what it is.

britishfreedom.org/why-british-employers-prefer-foreign-workers/
www.guardian.co.uk/business/2009/jan/11/primark-ethical-business-living

Sorry to put a crack in your glass houses ladies but the UK is not the shining example of equality and fair treatment of foreign workers you are making out. Yes the UK has laws to prevent this kind of thing but it is STILL happening.

There are a lot of things in the UAE that need fixing there's no denying that. Human trafficking and unfair treatment of foreign workers is a global issue however. It's naive to consider Dubai has the monopoly on this. If you are never going to set foot in a place due to their human rights violations may I suggest the moon for your next holiday? It's very public and obvious here, yes...but whether it's under your nose or hidden and underground these issues are in every corner of the world.

Another thing to bear in mind is that the foreign labourers who pay to come and work here are conned by their own countrymen. The agencies that bring them here are in their own countries - they are not UAE based and there are efforts underway to stop these agencies. Yes labourers work extremely long hours and work extremely hard in tough conditions. They do this for 10 years and then go home and retire and never work again having housed, clothed and educated their families. Would I want to do that? No. Would I want to work or live in their conditions? No. But then I don't live in a shack with 15 other family members and crap in the street in my home country. Most labourers say that if they were paid more they would go home after a shorter time. Recently a company cut overtime and implemented responsible working hours - the labourers went on strike and demanded their right to work 15 hour days be restored to them. (it wasn't). This is not press reporting it's from the horse's mouth btw.

As for the maids (au pairs/cleaners really), most are pretty happy with their lot and their wages. For those that are not, more and more systems are being put in place to help them. Bear in mind that for working mothers a maid is the only option as childcare here does not fit with working hours.

There is a LOT that needs to be changed. There is a lot that is already changing for the better. But don't fool yourself for a minute that the UK does not have these problems just because they are illegal and hidden from view.

To clarify... the agencies I refer to that con the labourers are those that charge huge fees for placing these people in work here.

Hello MN.
Having lived in the UAE for a number of years I felt compelled to write after reading some of your comments.

It seems that much of your information on this part of the world has been gained from what you have read the papers etc. I'm sure lots of us here would like you to come here in person to see the real UAE and how different it really is from what you perceive it to be.

Firstly, yes there are people here from all walks of life. Some have come from living under a tin roof in a field in India to living in a labour camp for 2 years. Instead of thinking what an impoverished life they are living and how hard done to they are, it is worth actually speaking to people and finding out the reality of how in 2 years they are able to return, and buy land for their families and get out of an endless cycle of poverty, educate their children so that the cycle finishes and they have a better chance in life.

In 3rd world countries, there is no guaranteed work and no guaranteed wage. Here, they are guaranteed an income of at least double what they could hope for even if they could find work.

Secondly, all the perception you have of women being botoxed and maids running around after them and lying around in the sun etc are simply not true. Most people in their home countries have aunties/grannies/sisters etc round the corner to help them with childcare/babysitting etc and mostly that is what someone would have home help for here, where women don't have a support network and where we are used to our husbands travelling around the region regularly (i.e. away from home). Of course people have them to help with cleaning etc too, but again, it is helping somone get out of an endless cycle of poverty and providing employment for someone.

Your perception of this country too, is vastly different from what the reality is. The tabloids may make it out to be all flash hotels and high rises but there is a lot more to the UAE than this.

It is a beautiful country, rich in culture (not always seen by those who hang out in 5* hotels and in the newer areas!) but yes it is there. The beauty of the desert and mountains are second to none.

It is a wonderful, safe country, with the most generous, respectful and courteous hosts, and personally I wouldn't live anywhere else.

Come over sometime. We'd be glad to show you the real Dubai and get rid of all those false perceptions.
OriginallyBM.
EW.

No thanks.

I have been.

I have seen first hand how people are treated in those labour camps. They are owned. I used to live with someone who 'bought' over 40 men when he purchased a compound. This was only 6-y years ago.

I didn't read that in the paper. I went to Al Quoz (sp?) and saw it for myself.

The place is a moral vacuum imo.

My cousin, who worked in Dubai for a while said "You have two buckets, one for the money and one for the shit. When one of your buckets is full, you leave"

It appears his shit bucket filled much quicker than his money bucket. But each to their own..

And as far as Indian/Pakistani/Filipino expats bringing in their spouses and children - yes of course they can. But the cost of living here is cripplingly expensive for them and pretty damned expensive for us too actually - rent and grocery shopping are easily on a par with London so whilst it does happen, they would often rather keep their families at home, visit each year, and send the money home - where it goes a great deal further. Because after all, money is why they are here

Really? why dont you leave your children back in the uk then?

You could visit?

Quite a few Westerners do.

I think some of you ladies are kidding yourselves if you think these women can buy land, taxis, educate their children and support their extended family on the wages they earn in Dubai. It would take them years to save up for a piece of land. Their wages go on food and education there is hardly anything left to save after sending money for their families.

I would really struggle to believe that a housemaid in Dubai has brought land with her wages unless she has had help from her DH.

As for culture in Dubai PLEASE tell me where you found it as for the years that I lived in the country I failed miserably in finding any.

I think those with morals can see how degrading it is in this day and age to pay according to passport, some of you gaining from these people have chosen to turn a blind eye. I wonder what will happen if the tables reversed and westerners working abroad were bottom of the pay check pile.