to be fuming at the "protecting our children" programme on BBC2 tonight?

[runtybunty]

I do not understand how a young child can be filmed like this. They stated at the start of the programme that they could not identify the 3 year old boy for his own protection. So how can they show his house, his parents and every other view of "toby" other than face-on? You would have to be a complete dimwit not to recognise the child if you knew him in real life.

Hunty- i am talking about now (or within 3 years), not years past.

How long ago are you quoting?

I have this week had to get passes for parents who live within walking distance, they won't walk in the rain.

The parent still recieves help after removal, the benefits don't stop for a weeks,sometimesmonths. If they have to bring food to the contact we get vouchers if they are struggling, this is all things i and my collegues have done/offered to all parents in the last couple of years.

Hunty- you always come onto every thread strongly. I have noticed when i ask the parent, to try to help if they have attended their assessment etc, they disappear off the thread, not every parent is faultless.

This case was probably flagged upby a MW, it was said that the family had been on a plan for two years. You have seen the ending, a snapshot only, after everything else has been tried.

Toby has a chance in long term foster placement, if adoption is not forthcoming. The lack of adoptive parents isn't SS fault. Most of my collegues who have adopted have all taken older children.

I DO agree with your assertation that the pet was cared for better.And that IS wrong. But some people have genuinely grown up in an environment where pets DO get treated better than the humans, and have no idea that that isn't the way it should be - at least not without being TAUGHT it.

I can't say that they DID engage with all services offered, or that they DIDN'T. What I DO feel qualified to talk about is my own personal experience, and that of a ex-friend who DID end up losing her dc to adoption (That I had tried to support more than SS did, tbh).

I am all for helping people to be better parents but making major behaviour changes takes motivation and time. Some people need the threat of removal to get any motivation and their poor children may not have the time.
OK so put the sheets on the bed the first time, help them to change it once, make expectations clear but ultimately they've got to do it themselves. If someone needs their hand holding to that degree permanently then they cannot be a good parent and their child deserves a chance of a good life.

Is it really true that there are less people wanting to adopt these days? Or are we just making it too hard for them. I know a lovely couple who waited 5 years to be able to adopt their DS and won't be allowed any more although they have plenty of love and material resources because they are now 'too old'. Why can't a white family adopt a baby of another ethnicity in this country but they can go abroad and do it!

I've got quite a bit of experience of CP many different ways. I have supported people in this situation and in some cases they were able to improve and keep their children and in other cases it was quite right that the children were taken away. Some of my clients have even acknowledged this later.

I also have a friend whose daughter was removed from her care. Initially I thought it was a terrible miscarriage of justice but later she admitted to me some of the things that went on behind closed doors and I changed my mind. She is not malicious just had no family support, horrible upbringing herself and no clue how to do better. I do think SS failed her. By the time her DD was removed it was probably too late but she'd had 2 or 3 previous referrals where nothing was done to help just case closed, no follow up. They probably told her to go to Sure Start or something but that is nowhere near enough. There is no way that a parent can complain about SS as they are so powerless and demonised that complaints aren't listened too. I do think that is a failing. Plus my friend is obviously devastated by her loss (for all her failings she did love her DD very much) and she has no-one to pick up the pieces. I think there should be some compassion for parents too as they have often been victims themselves.

I don't go onto EVERY thread strongly - just those that I have strong feelings about. And I probably WILL disappear fromthe threads periodically, and return to them after the dc are in bed. I come on MN while my 1yo is sleeping. As it is a way for me to socialise. He is too old for the baby groups here (only up to 1yo), and too young for the toddler groups (must be walking unaided for safety reasons, which he isn't, quite yet, won't be long though).

When he is awake, I am busy. Obviously.

Humans have a very small gap in which they acquire language. Toby was over three years old and was not speaking. There was a strong possibility that he would never attain language acquisition if SW did not intervene quickly. The mother was making a sligo effort to cooperate, and when the SW realised she was going to be hospitalised, possibly until the end of her pregnancy, they had to intervene so that Toby could be taken out of the care of his father, who was physically abusing him and neglecting him, who was not cooperating with the SW.

Hunty- i meant at times when someone has started a threadalong the lines of SS stealling their children and i have questioned themso that i can give advice, they dissappear, but you stay on. From what i understand your experience was a while ago, like i said payments are now made to parents, for travel etc. Why you doubt that because you wasn't offered the same, how long ago?n i don't know, i know what my job entails daily and i see a lot of Mikes and Tiffanys.

I've not watched it yet so I can't comment on the content but to the poster who said no one has does from poor oral hygiene, bacteria from rotten teeth can lead to heart disease and problems with your liver.

Until recently, as I have a pre existing heart condition, I had to take antibiotics before getting my teeth cleaned at the dentist, in case of problems.

Have no experience of SW here, but I do know lots about the education, health and careers sectors where very often the biggest problem is getting those who need help the most to actually accept it.

My friend works in education with teenagers with extra needs - the kids who really need that extra help to get out and fulfill their potential. She spends long hours on the phone, arranging job placements for these kids - the kind of placements that many people would love their kids to be given - and so often, the kid doesn't turn up for work. My dad has had the same experience in the careers service.

Likewise, in health, it's often the most in need that won't take the services offered. So the NHS can offer screening services, walk in clinics etc and those in most need will choose not to attend.

My sister has worked in a project supporting women who have become sex workers to fund their drug habits. They are all entitled to state benefits, but will not engage with the process in any way, so they do not get the resources aimed at them. Even when the paperwork etc is set up for them, any further engagement required such as signing on, or attending meetings, falls by the wayside.

As others have said, we live in a world with finite resources. There comes a point where people have to help themselves. There are two sides to this, ie the poster who desperately wanted a speech therapy appt but had to wait for years. The resources aren't bottomless, and they should be targeted at those who are in most need, of course, but also those who want to engage and to use what's offered.

Mamadoc-we constantly have parents admiting years down the line, usually after another pregnancy has been announced, what was actually going on and most will work tomake sure that it doesn't happen again.

There are less adoptions because there are stronger criterias, less wanting to adopt ,but mainly because parents are given a chance and the child is placed with family and back and forward until the window of someone wanting to adopt has passed.

There are a lot of successful long term fostering arrangements and Special Guardianship Orders given,though, so it balances out. The birth family is always given a chance, but sometimes it becaomes apparent that someone wants the child for the housing and allowance that they will be awarded. I have put packages together worth £1200 a week for siblings.

died, not does - sorry!

I DO have very strong feelings, from BOTH sides of the story, as a child in an abusive and neglectful situation AND as a parent who has had previous involvement with SS, though. So of course I am going to show up on these threads when I come across them!

It is frustrating, my own DD was waiting for a SALT appointment for 9 months ,i was having appointments arranged weekly for one family. The support worker went to take her and her two children, she wouldn't go.

One family wouldn't register the birth, out of stubbonness they said that they would rather go to prison.

Hunty- but you don't take on board how things have moved on. You have just doubted that parents are given bus passes. I was once again surprised this week when a dad refused to come for contact because it was raining. He missed one weeks worth and his parenting assessments.

That IS wrong. As I said, I walked 12 miles each way to see my DD. OK, things may haved moved on, I'll grant that, it WAS over 12 years ago. I hope they have. In which case, I'll try to be a bit more objective.

I'm sure its got to be a case of targeting resources better even though I'm sure it must be very hard. I feel like maybe we spend lots of time and energy trying to salvage hopeless cases where its too late instead of doing more prevention with families at risk.

Some of my clients who've accidentally got pregnant had severe mental illness, substance abuse, domestic violence, estranged from family, couldn't keep themselves clean, fed and warm let alone a child. The rules say they all get offered all the chances even though the deck is very stacked against. No-one even in that dire situation finds it easy to voluntarily sign their child away so they all say they want to contest it but then they sort of vote with their feet by failing to attend contact or assessments which is a great waste of time and money. In that scenario the child needs to be adopted early whilst its got the best chance and the parent counselled to help them avoid it happening again. (I do try to offer them all a long term contraceptive).

Some of the cases (like my friend) where just one assessment is done and then discharged because they 'don't meet criteria' is actually a missed opportunity to avert a disaster and money spent then would prevent a lot of harm.

Just watched this programme on iplayer.

For everyone involved. Most of all the children.

It's tragic how inadequate parenting cascades down the generations, if interventions aren't made or don't work.

It's left me thinking about how these parents can be identified and supported to get out in the right way BEFORE baby arrives, because it seems to me that trouble breeds trouble, in the sense that inadequate parenting creates difficult children, who are then harder to parent.

I'd like to see case-loading midwifery care for all families identified as struggling during the antenatal period. And free nursery or childminder places from very early on. Having been one of those people with serious misgivings about full time nursery placements for very tiny children, I can see how important and helpful nursery might be for a child who's not getting adequate stimulation and nurturing at home.

On another note - I think the social workers came out of the programme well. It did help you understand the difficulties of their work.

"get out in the right way BEFORE baby arrives" whoops, meant 'start out'

Sometimes my friend would be stupidly arsey over a bus pass or some minor detail of contact being changed but behind that was just her trying to control just one tiny thing in this completely powerless situation she was in. It did seem to me that no-one was understanding that this was not actually her normal behaviour but someone under incredible stress of having their child removed and of course if she ever did lose it with a SW then that black mark was recorded.
I don't actually think they were wrong to remove her child but I do think it could have been prevented and that she could have been handled more sensitively.

shagmund, I see what you mean and I agree to an extent, but there will always be an issue when resources are tageted at the most needy like that.

My DP and I pay ££££ for our son's nursery care. But if we were to neglect him and fail to stimulate him etc he might get it for nothing... as a (frustrated) liberal tax payer I accept that, but thousands wouldn't.

I am a social work BA student with absolutely no intention of working in child protection because it's not for me but I watched with interest.

I saw:

• The SW sitting on the floor on one visit with the parents as they were too.
• 2 senior experienced SWers also visiting the home.
• The family being given chance after chance to make things better.
• The SW making a list of things for T&M to do at home e.g. clean the bathroom floor.
• Mike handling Toby very roughly in the front of the camera. I was shocked one of the crew did not step in actually.
• Dog poo and filth in the floor, certainly not a home to bring a premature baby back to.
• Tiffany repeatedly saying she would get a bed but not doing so until the SWers had one delivered.
• Tiffany repeatedly saying she would do whatever it takes but not doing so.
• An extremely distressed child who flourished within days of being taken out of his home.
• The SWers saying the parents missed important medical appts which are crucial for such a young child with potential SN.
• Mike not changing Toby's nappy at all, feeding his child, putting his child to bed, providing adequate clothing for a night in FC.
• A very depressed mother.
• A father who could not control his aggression.

Morris - maybe they would if they understood how really intensive, good quality early intervention saves the tax payer ££££££ in the long run.

The bulk of our prison population have very poor literacy and numeracy. In the case of women prisoners, most have mental health problems rooted in difficult childhoods.

Really - for the sake of all of us we need to help these children. Early on in their lives.

We should be POURING resources into supporting these families.

" The SW sitting on the floor on one visit with the parents as they were too."

And given the state of the carpet, she was going well beyond the call of duty in doing this......

I guess the thing is Morris he might not. You are ensuring he does.

It is frustrating though, I have relatives who do nothing for themselves and people give them money, grants, bring cooked food to them, take washing to the laundrette. If we neglected our children you can't help but feel a ton of bricks would be dropped on us.