to be fuming at the "protecting our children" programme on BBC2 tonight?

[runtybunty]

I do not understand how a young child can be filmed like this. They stated at the start of the programme that they could not identify the 3 year old boy for his own protection. So how can they show his house, his parents and every other view of "toby" other than face-on? You would have to be a complete dimwit not to recognise the child if you knew him in real life.

I found it quite emotional to watch - I as horrified at the squalour at poor wee mite had to live in and how bleak life would have been for him if he hadn't been taken into foster are. I think Tiffany could have been a good mum on her own (with support) but she just seemed so defeated.

I just couldn't get over the state of the house, cleanliness doesn't cost anything so lack of money isn't an excuse.

Seeing how much the wee boy came on after just a couple of months in foster care was emotional to see, I just hope he (and the baby girl) have a lovely safe life with caring parents.

Mike was a bit simple im unprofessional o.

He coudn't seem to grasp what was required of him.

Therefore little chance of him changing.

My only misgiving was the voiceover as Tiffany walked away along the street which said that hopefully she would now be able to get herself on track and make healthy relationships. Without a supportive GP, counsellor etc why should she be able to change. She has had a bad upbringing and always depended on others eg Mike. Poor girl. She needs a serious amount of support to change her life for the better but probably won't get any.

I've already posted my views on the other thread. Just two points to make here:

First is that a number of posters, specially near the top of the thread, picked up on specific issues (like the bed, or the toothbrush, or playing in front of a social worker), focused on them and argued they didn't justify child removal. But IME this case was very typical in that there wasn't one big thing that everyone could agree justified removal (like sexual abuse, or battery). Social workers have to look at the situation in the round, and present a case to the courts with detailed evidence on lots and lots of 'little' issues. For example, a teenage girl I know was taken into care for the following reasons:

• infested with nits ("all kids get nits")
• a mouthful of rotten teeth ("no-one ever died of dental decay")
• malnutrition ("parents probably don't know how to cook properly - benefits don't allow for buying of fresh fruit and veg")
• streetwise way, way beyond her years ("don't judge with middle class values")
• repeatedly threatened and beaten up by neighbours and mother's dealers ("mother is vulnerable - she should be helped, not punished")
• sexually abused by mother's friends ("as above")
• mother didn't show empathy or understanding after her daughter was sexually abused ("she was probably too intimidated by the social workers to talk about how she was really feeling")

My quotes in brackets are how I would imaging some MNetters commenting if they heard a snapshot about this case. But this kid is now, frankly, almost without hope of having a normal life. No doubt in a few years her own children will be taken off her. She is way beyond the reach of parenting classes or targeted support.

Second point: some people are talking as though social workers never offer support, only take children away. But in most cases, social services involvement does NOT result in children being taken away. I think that overall it is far too little, too late, but sometimes it can work well. I know a little boy who has had social services involvement (suspected physical abuse and neglect) for the last couple of years. His parents are furious that they are suspected. BUT this kid started primary school already statemented and with nearly FT support in the classroom. The social workers have accessed all kinds of medical help for him, including getting him to the opticians for glasses (the parents are threatening to sue because the social workers didn't do this earlier, FGS), plus practical help in getting their home habitable. I think this boy's home life is very far from ideal, but not so bad to justify removal, and the social services involvement has actually been a lifeline for him.

NONE of those things you have typed make it impossible for that teenage girl to become a good parent.

I WAS that teenage girl. In all but one way. (I was never beaten up by a parent's ^dealers, just by my mother and stepdad...).

I absolutely DETEST the inference by SW's that if you have been abused or seriously neglected yourself, that you will abuse or seriously neglect your OWN children. You may not have had a good model of how a childhood should be, but more often than not, WITH the right support and teaching you CAN become a good parent.

It may mean paying out for residential care for the mother and child/ren, which I know costs more money (that's the reson SS wanted ME to stay in an unsupported bedsit rather than the M&B unit - because it would have to be paid for from the 'leaving care funds' and it was twice as expensive), but gives the right teaching and support.

With that help, I learnt what it takes to run a house, cook nutritious meals from scratch, got a qualification in first aid, went to college and then on to a degree course, what a child's development milestones are, how to access NHS support for special needs children, how to do laundry, they taught me how to PLAY with children of different ages (not something I had ANY idea how to do before that), and many many more things.

Now, 13 years later, I am a Lone Parent to 4 dc, 2 of whom have SN, my 13yo DD is just about to choose her options, I have a 9yo who is preparing to take his 11+, an 8yo, who despite being ready to go to an SN school at 4yo, is now working at the average level for his age group in mainstream school, a 1yo baby who is meeting all his milestones. I help out with reading at the older DS's primary school once a fortnight when DS3 is with his dad (i.e. I pass a CRB check), I have a tidy house, I make and decorate cakes from scratch for my friend's dc's birthdays, I love playing board games with my dc even if DS1 does always thrash me at monopoly. People are happy for me to look after their dc. I volunteer at a support group for dc with special needs. I make sure my dc are clean, well fed, get to school every day, homework done, I make sure that my dc get enough exercise and are a healthy weight.

NOW, I doubt SW's would look twice at my dc. So I get really rather agitated when I hear people say that someone who has been abused or neglected is going to do the same to their own dc like it is inevitable. IT ISN'T.

No HuntyCat, I did not say that anyone who has experienced that list cannot go on to become a good parent. I am saying that THAT girl is so incredibly damaged that it is unlikely she will be able to. Obviously I'm not going to go into minute (identifying) detail to prove that on this thread. But clearly the killer factors will be those that are less tangible: attachment disorder, impulse control, empathy etc. There will always be people who are doomed by their upbringing, and people who are amazingly resilient and manage to transcend truly dreadful experiences. I understand why you are so insulted by the careless use of the cycle of deprivation concept (as an adoptive mother, I am hugely insulted by people who assume my child is doomed to bring me trouble and grief - and a lot of people do assume that). But it is also, clearly, not just a middle class myth, and the difficulty many people have in breaking out from cycles of behaviour laid down in their own childhood is one reason why social workers can't afford to wait too long before taking children into care.

I suppose I get more aggreived by that insinuation because it was what the SW was trying to use as the REASON for trying to remove my DD. When, in fact, when I managed to get myself a place in a M&B unit through the GP, (Thank god for my wonderful GP IMO), it totally turned my life, and that of my DD and my subsequent 3 dc, round.

WHY placements like that aren't standard for struggling familes is beyond me. MOST parents that have SS involvement, when offered the choice of short-term supported accommodation, or possibly losing their dc, WILL opt for the supported accommodation, and learn a lot from it if it is run properly, just as I did. And the long-term effects are that a lot more parents that aren't adequate WILL become adequate.

NOT all will, I agree. My mother wouldn't have been an adequate parent even with a lobotomy. But it gives everyone a chance to learn, WHILE at the same time protecting the child/ren.

Just MY opinion, obviously.

Yes, I understand your feelings. I'm sure we all know people who have had godawful childhoods and have become fantastic parents, determined to ensure their children will never have to go through the same. It's surprising then that so many people like to quote the 'doomed to repeat history' canard.

Having said that, in most cases you can tell pretty quickly when someone has the intelligence, insight, empathy and courage to transform their own life, don't you think?

Intelligence should not be a determining factor. Insight takes a while to gain. Empathy CAN be learnt. Courage, however, I would agree, is needed in bucketfuls.

I don't think it is instantly evident tbh. I think it takes at least 6 months to a year to see if things can change. I know it took me longer than that to get all the way there. I left the mother and baby unit after 2 years, and I needed every day of those two years. But it was worth it, IMO.

Hunty, it seems as though you wanted to change and sought help to do so which enabled the change. I apologise if I have it wrong.

Some parents, even though their childhood was horrific, don't understand the need for change. There lies the difference I think.

I was saved by sw's and the nspcc, sounds dramatic but I honestly think that. I was very lucky that my parents took me on as I wasn't a baby and had huge issues. I don't hate my bio mum, she had severe problems herself, but never had the capacity to change.

I wish there was more done for parents after removal too, they are very damaged people themselves. It's a very sad situation for all involved.

I totally agree that more needs to be done to help parents after removal - or they will go on to have more dc without having changed. I HAVE seen that happen. One of the people I came into contact with in the past has had 7 children so far, over 11 years. All have been removed, one by one. She CAN'T change, and much as it hurts her, it IS best for her dc to be removed. But that is FAR from the norm, IME.

But I only realised that I NEEDED to change because I was TOLD, IYSWIM. And I only got the help I needed because I had a wonderful GP, who suggested it to me, then pushed it through when I agreed.

SS were NOT the insigators of the change, and IMO they should have been. But in a more supportive, less scary way. I was so scared of them, due to the way they were treating me, and holding the loss of my DD 'over' me, and beating me with it like a stick, (which, in the way it was done, was emotional abuse IMO), that they told me I was mentally unstable because I shook with fear whenever they told me that I WOULD lose my DD...Who the hell WOULDN'T? It wasn't a very condusive atmosphere for positive change IMO.

YOur post made me cry hunty - literally burst into tears. I am so glad you are on this thread. I am not glad to hear of your appalling experiences but your contribution to this thead and to this argument is priceless imo. I hope you can go on in some way to add to this debate in a more visible way ie nationally (if you haven't already?). I very much respect your opinions and viewpoints and also the tremendous achievements you have made in your life after an horrific start.

this has been a powerful and thought-provoking thread with some first-class contributions on it - the ground has certainly shifted for me through it. I realised by reading some of the posts that I missed the beginning of the prog - is it too late to catch it on iplayer again?

HuntyCat - I think you have been very brave to post on this thread (& others in the past). I always think your contributions add so much and make people (like me) stop to think before opening our mouths... or at least they should, some people either have posted without reading the thread or are very rude/clueless.

If people like you didn't post, I would be one of the people saying 'who the fuck needs to be told to clean a childs teeth' or 'how to provide the very basics for a child fgs'... but then you (or someone like you) posts and I get another glimpse into a life that I just cannot imagine. It makes me very grateful for the childhood I had (which I never thought was anything special - just 'the norm') and very upset that you and others had a kind of childhood I can barely imagine.

It's a credit to you (and those who helped you along the way) how you have 'turned out'

See it on iPlayer