to think most people would like us to live in a communist country?

[wannaBe]

"landlords shouldn't be allowed to rent for more than x amount of money."

"People shouldn't be allowed to sell their houses for more than a certain amount of money."

"People shouldn't be allowed to earn more than a certain amount of money (I'm talking salary here not benefits)."

This isn't a thread about who is better off and who can afford to do what - that's been done to death elsewhere.

But do people really think we would be in a better place if we didn't live in a free economy and where we were dictated to by the state how much we could and couldn't earn/whether we could or couldn't sell our house etc? really?

I am another who grew up in the Soviet Union and the jaw dropping ignorance of some of these posts is mind blowing.

Communism isn't as far removed from capitalism as you would think and Russia hasn't been close to the communist ideology since the ideology is tainted by the "Tin god" effect.

Communism in it's purest form is indeed the fairest way to run a society where each member of that society gets his/her share of the profits of the collective.

In my opinion.

I will grant you that it's hard to achieve but to claim people are ignorant because they don't understand the way the communists in the USSR/Russia did business with it's people you assume the soviet model is proposed.

It isn't and wasn't, it's an ideology that certainly needs fine tuning but in reality if the utopian ideal was ever achieved it would be better than greedy capitalism wrapped in a veneer of party politics and Napoleon the Pig troughing out with his/her mates at the table of avarice.

For those who are really interested in thinking about alternative cultures, I recommend reading Ursula Le Guin's The Dispossessed. It's a fascinating view of a very very different way of living (she is also a really interesting author in general).

It's interesting about Russia. My uncle is Russian and his mother spent some years in Siberia (I remember when I was quite small her telling me how wonderful she thought the sky was, as for a while the only highlight of her day was catching a glimpse of the sky during the short walk around the prison yard she was permitted). They were very glad to escape. On the other hand I had a Russian colleague for a while, similar age to me who said things had been much better for her family before Glasnost.

NOOKA- i quite agree with some of the linguistic reality theory

relativity. sorry im tired.

OrmIrian- Did you never stop to think that the reason people are paid good money for being a brain surgeon is becaue it is "stressful" others lives are in your hands. Literally. High stress = high pay. I don't think 10 years down the line they do it for the love of their work, they do it because it's interesting and it sure as hell pays for a nice life.

Also someone mentioned swapping jobs i.e doctors in fields and vice versa, that just smacks of what happened in Cambodia, adn we knwo how that ended.

I think it's important and intersting that we have people here commenting who have lived through communism. Did you not realise that communism would mean serious censorship? Or did you just imagine we'd all live in our identical little houses, watching identical flat screen tellys, with identical wages and identical lives? Happy as Larry. Really?

" I don't think 10 years down the line they do it for the love of their work, they do it because it's interesting "

Well being 'interesting' is the same as loving their work isn't it? When you think about it it's unfair that the most fascinating and satisfactory jobs are also usually the most well-paid ones.

No-one is actually advocating that we all up sticks to Communist China - there are no ideal examples in the real world. Everyone is playing with ideas.

And as for everyone watching the same programs and sitting in identical houses - how many people watch BB and buy their 'decor' from B&Q? Capitalism and globalism can be guilty of producing millions of clones too - but we are let ourselves be kidded into thinking we choose it.

And in Cambodia the intellectuals were punished by being sent to the fields. THey were trying to wipe the slate clean and start again. Nothing to do with keeping a coherent, integrated and fair society ticking along.

I've only read the op.

It struck me as a bit half-witted.

russia was never communist. china was never communist.cambodia was never communist. cuba was never communist.

You have no country to judge communism by.

Well. If you're going to start talking sense, Paranoid, I'm off. Humph.

"When you think about it it's unfair that the most fascinating and satisfactory jobs are also usually the most well-paid ones."

Errrr yes, and normally people have studied and worked very hard to get there, so of course they will be well paid, it takes a lot of brain power to do a "satisfactory" job. They're being rewarded for their near superhuman efforts, and I have a close personal example of this. I don't want to start a war on this but (rhetorically) why shoudln't they be rewarded for a harder effort?

Someone on here was close to the mark in saying that alongside capitalism comes more freedoms, creativity and the power to be the best you. (Thank you Oprah) is it not liberating to feel that the sky is your limit?

I wonder if a situation miraculously arose all of a sudden whereby all individuals has enough money to live comfortable but not luxurious, lives, if all those with satisying and fulfilling, if stressful, jobs, would decide 'Fuck this for a game of soldiers, I'm going to be a bin man'. Rewards, in the sense of financial rewards, would be irrelevant then perhaps?

I have a degree, years of experience and training and I enjoy my job. No I am not brain surgeon material and not paid at anything like that sort of level but doing OK. If I was told that everyone in my company was to earn the same amount of money I don't think I would all of a sudden jack it in and ask to be a cleaner because there was less responsibility.

That would all be fine glitters, if people had an equal starting point.

To get into med school, vetinerary college etc etc you need not only top exam results but relevant work experience and extremely good contacts.

Who is more likely out of these two children to "succeed"?

A. Born in poverty on an estate to a mother who has three cleaning jobs and isn't home often, and a father who is disabled and unable to work, who attends an ordinary struggling school with 30 in a class and a lot of behaviour issues.

B. Born into a comfortable middle class professional home. Sent to a private school with 18 in a class and motivated focussed parents with the time and energy to help, the contacts to call on and the finance for unpaid work experience?

When the playing field is truly level at the start for everyone, then you can say May the best human being win.

Right now, it's rigged.

And what Orm said. Working in a field you love for good remuneration is a blessing and a privilege.

Exactly Hullygully.

Life certainly isn't a fair and level playing field all the handwringing about social mobility wont ever change that.

Until that changes there will always be a percentage of the population choosing vocations (Not jobs) where they are financially and emotionally taken care of.

Where do I begin... Some of the ignorance on here is beautiful in its innocence.

Right, I didn't want to do this, but both my parents came from poverty (my mother worse tbf), my father's parents were "working class" worked down the mines up North, no spare cash for either of them, state schools etc... still saw the pot of gold at the end of the rainbow and went hammer and tong for it. I believe my dad even spent a good bit of time teaching his own class A level maths becaue the teacher went AWOL. He went to medical school. I on the other hand have been "lucky" so won't include myself in this argument, but they leave me under no illusion that determination and drive will get you somewhere. Oh and my dad's work experience? Pretty much cleaning up poop and wee in a local hospital as a porter, which he pushed for. Find me a young person that would think ok that might look good on my CV and show I'm a hard working all round good character....

Some people are lucky I accept that, some people are not, level out your own playing field.

glitters do you not see the flaw in your argument?

1. Everyone is different

1. If everyone "levelled out the field" and became doctors, who's going to collect the rubbish?

Maybe but my dd wants to do physio and she has done some work experience in various places all sorted out by her not me. My DH and I am not exactly rolling in it and she doesn't go to private school.

What foglike says is true. you will just drag everyone down.

Both my parents were from poor backgrounds but they worked hard. My dad came from the council estate but went to university in the 50's.

I think if you want to succeed you can. People always have done.

However things have become very difficult in Britain for people in all classes.

Hully, do you not see the flaw in your argument?!

1. Everyone is different, thank god, we don't all want the same things.

1. Exactly. Hence the argument, that not everyone has the mental capacity or drive to be a doctor and I'm grateful to these people for collecting the rubbish.

We could go round and round this conversation for hours/days,and as much as I'm not going to convince you, you're not going to convince me. I just personally beleive that any semblance of communism would be god awful and that one makes their own luck.

I will never believe it to be workable or possible that everyone has the same shiny pin start in life, it sucks..but it's life.

No, everyone is different so not everyone can overcome their circumstances.

If someone is working as hard as they can collecting your rubbish, to the best of their ability, why should they only ever earn a pittance?

Allthatglitters & alemci Yep, that sounds familiar - I grew up in a benefit dependant household, without a pot to piss in, in a post-mining shithole on the north-west. It didn't do me any harm.

I had exactly the same opportunities as everyone else who I went to school with and who were from similar backgrounds. When we left school, I moved away to find work and am doing very well thank you. Of those that chose to stay, most as bright or as thick as me, one or two have never held a job in their life, some struggle to get by in low paid work and several are doing as well, if not better, than I am. The difference between 'us and them' is our refusal to accept that the world can't be a better place.

If you are prepared to work your nuts off, you can (and probably will) succeed.

Well aren't you the lucky one mrpants.

There are many variables in escaping the poverty trap too many to mention in a post but you'll have a rough idea.

The significance is how high those percentages are not how well you personally have done.

I don't wish to sound rude but your anecdotal evidence doesn't apply to most people and it's myopic at best.

Hully I assume you pay council tax and NI, right so your NI goes in most part to the drs/nhs/schools etc and your council tax to bin men etc. Now in my case my NI is around 4 times higher than what I pay in council tax. Would you or I be happier paying that rate on NI again, in council tax, for the hardorking bin men? Or would you like to pay less NI, for less qualified drs, say they only have to study for 3 years not 5? Your choice...either take home the pay you do now, just change the ratios of NI and council tax, or pay double overall and have less moeny for food on the table, utilities and enjoying your life.

Perhaps, jsut perhaps you might be happy, but I believe everything has relative value, and I believe saving a life over collecting my rubbish ( as important as that is) is more important to me, and probably to a few other people too.

If 3 people on this one board including mr pants, alemci and my own family managed foglike, I think that it shows there is a seriously good chance you can.