The old chestnet about holidays in term time because they are cheaper.

[troisgarcons]

School Y4/5/6 meeting this evening about changes in Ofsted and the way information will be reported to parents (and parental responsibility in supporting educational standards and methods).

To summarise, every child will have an individual "flightpath" according to ability but some things are governemnt measures and therefore immovable.

One of which was attendance. So once we'd got past the hysterical parent ranting about her particular case of chicken pox which dipped her child below the target threshold of 95% and illness not being a childs fault and the heckler spouting disability discrimination sigh we had She-who-wants-holiday-in-term-time spouting at every opportunity.

It got to the point where I was having fantsies about ripping her tongue out and after and hour of this - the Head made it clear there are 365 days in a year, of which 190 are school days , therefore there are a rather large amount of days not at school to have "family time". And still the parent kept on and on and on and on .....after an hour of her chirping in at every opportunity I pointed out that if she wished to remove her child for one or two weeks that was her prerogative but her selfishness impinged on my child learning as when her child returned lessons would have to be summarised.

I asked how she would feel if her childs teachers were feckless enough to book holiday in term time and leave her child without continuity of education.

She said "well, you just sound like a teacher and thats your career choice so I expect you to be in school when I want you there!!!"

So I played devils advocat and said "are you saying my right to family life is lesser then yours?"

To whit she said "you signed up for it"

So for all of you (including me) who do look @ school statistics - just remember - that with the best will in the world, there are mardy parents who just do not co-opt into the educations system and will probably have monumental hissy fits when little Jaydeen-Beckham and Beyonce-Chardonay'ah dont achieve anything much at the end of their school career and leave with a monumental sense of entitlement that the entire world owes them a living.

and breath

AIBU to get that off my chest?

You sound a bit jealous, OP

I'm not convinced about the whole emphasis on % missed from school. The rule at our school is no permission for term time holidays unless your dc have a better than 95% record. I keep mine off if unwell and they never manage 95% - last year a third of the class were off every day for several weeks before Christmas, so I don't suppose everyone else is greatly different.
I've been lucky enough to book 2 weeks leave in the summer holidays lately but have worked every half term, and worked all the Xmas holidays too (had Xmas day off), will be working over Easter holidays. I could easily be unable to take leave in the children's holidays depending on rota. I'm not prepared to send them in under the weather - it's no use to them and spreads illness around - just to be "allowed" to take a week off in term time. I presume there is a target the school are trying to meet but tbh I don't think it should be quite so rigid. I will always try not to take them out of school (because it shows them that school is a priority) but if that was going to mean a year without having leave at the same time as them, I'd have to consider taking them out of school. And that wouldn't be financially driven - we already camp in the UK and that isn't wildly more expensive in the holidays (a bit more) than term time.

If I go back to my original OP, I think my issue was that the child who went to Oz had parents who tried to make sure she gots loads out of it,and who alsomade sure she had help with catching up.
The child who went to Spain didn't mention his parents much at all during his retelling of his holiday, and didn't understand much else of what went on.

It was part of a bigger picture though. Child A struggled a bit at school when she first arrived, but had support and despite missing school on occasion, she got a lot out of what she did instead and is a lovely,well-rounded kid doing fairly well at secondary (not genius level, but she'll do ok for herself).
Child B also struggled during early years of school. He is not doing well at secondary, but neither he (or his schools) had much support from home (holidays in school time, and the structure of those holidays, are just one angle on this, but I think an important one). His experiences overseas only seem to have taught him that school really isn't that important when there is something else you'd rather be doing.

That's really what I'm wary of - it is part of a much bigger picture but although you are right - a week won't make much difference, how many times do you say that before it does make a difference? And what is the eventual message that the kids get from it?

I don't generally agree with taking the dc out of school in term time but, , I will be doing so this year for a week away with lots of family members from around the world who are all congregating in the UK to celebrate a family milestone.

I will make sure we have homework done and handed in, even if a little late and we will do plenty of reading practice etc etc etc. I feel I owe the class teachers this much effort so that they don't have to make too many allowances for the dc's absence.

I personally think however that parents should be charged for a catch up session(s) if deemed necessary by the absent child's class teacher. If the parents can afford the holiday they can surely afford say £30 for a catch up session' although I would vary the catch up session according to the type of holiday. Camping in Wales say £10, 2 weeks in Florida say £50.

Schools need all the revenue they can get at the moment, teachers pay/conditions are under attack so a sideline in catch up sessions could keep standards up and put a little back into the pot and make the decision, where it is purely financial and not due to parents employment restrictions, a little more balanced.

Schools tend to be judged by average attendance % but I'm guessing most parents only consider their own child's attendance.

Some children have health problems that necessitate more time off school so the healthy majority need to maintain a good attendance % to ensure that overall the school doesn't look bad.

yes agree to disagree i think baby

i actually do think sometimes laying on a beach for 2 weeks is more important than 2 weeks of school (education and school are 2 different things imo). Not obviously dc's whole education! But yes, for that 2 weeks in June where i would have been doing end of school play or something, laying on the beach and not going crazy with work, was more important to my mum and dad. And i respect that.

Sometimes others needs are greater.

And as for the How could I then tell her, later on, that she needs to work hard at school because it's important, and that she can go out to play after her homework is done? well, you can say that because you are the parent/adult and it is not a democracy!

I also disagree entirely with the protestant work ethic and i think it's good for kids to learn that life is not always about work - that it's perfectly valid to rest. Even to bunk off occasionally!!!

i don't want to breed worker bees i want them to enjoy life. I also don't agree with homework (at all for primary age children - and think there should be less for secondary)!!

YABU, and also quite fucking rude and offensive to say
"So once we'd got past the hysterical parent ranting about her particular case of chicken pox which dipped her child below the target threshold of 95% and illness not being a childs fault and the heckler spouting disability discrimination sigh "

Actually children with disabilites or illnesses are affected by all the bollocks pressure about attendance and 'rewards' for perfect attendance that they can't possibly get through no fault of their own or their parents. Similarly, some kids get ill more often than others, and some parents will shove their child into school to infect every other poor bugger when frankly they should be tucked up on the sofa or in bed. So the child with a mother who doses them with paracetamol to bring the temperature down and sends them to school anyway gets the 'congrats' letter, and the child who is kept at home when its ill doesn't. I knew a nurse who used to put calpol into their DC's lunchtime juice so his temperature didn't go back up in the afternoon.

Anyway, this thread has made me very glad that I home educate, especially as DD is currently in New Zealand for almost four weeks, which there's no way she would have been able to do if she'd still been in school. I think that what she's gaining from being out there far outweighs what she would have gained from four weeks in school. babybythesea I hope you can organise authorised absence for your DC when the time comes, as I agree that you'd be depriving her of so much if she wasn't able to spend that time with her family.

In my DD's year at secondary school there are 240 children. There are 40 places on the school ski trip. These 40n children will all miss one week at school. Lessons will continue as normal for the other 200 children. The school obviously isn't concerned that the 40 lucky skiers, whose parents can afford the extortionate cost, will miss a weeks worth of lessons. This scenario must be repeated in every year in every secondary school. What is the difference if you take your child out?
(In fact these skiers are probably the children whose parents can afford to take them away again on expensive holidays outside termtime as money can't be an issue to afford the ski trip in the first place- think £1000+. What about the children who will never have the opportunity to have even one decent holiday because their parents can't afford school holiday prices?)

Interestingly, I agree with most of your post! I agree that kids need to know that life isn't always about work, and that they need to enjoy life. I think kids here start school a bit early, and that they have too much homework!

Not so sure about the Victorian approach - I'm quite strict too but I generally believe in leading by example.

Kids do need to learn that rest is important, but they also need to know the 'time and a place' thing - they get loads of rest time! And as I said, I'm not against going on holiday in term time but I think the rest then needs to be balanced with something that does stretch them a bit more.

If nothing else, I'd be really sad if my dd came home from a trip abroad and couldn't tell me anything about where she'd been, not even a new word learnt or new food tried. But then I go away to see new things and experience new things - we do lie on a beach but we like to do more active things as well. When I show her the world, I want her to see more of it than the sand, and to meet more people and see more ways of life than those who work in the hotel.

I would agree that education and school can be, and often are, two different things. So take your kdis out of school, by all means (where they would be getting an education!) and give them education of a different sort, but I don't agree with you (surprised?!) that watching me lie on a beach for 2 weeks falls into that category. Yes, for a few days of the holiday, but not for all of it.

Thanks crabby! Hope so too - I'm normally a stickler for going to things and school and education are important (as you might see from some other posts!), and attendance is a key part of that. However, I just don't see how we could have dd spend time with her family without taking her out of school and the trip is so expensive it's not going to be a yearly thing. I think as long as we can ensure she never comes out of school otherwise, and if we find out ahead of time what she's going to miss, do some of it early and catch up on the rest later, maybe we can persuade the school it's ok. We've got two years to be model parents first...!!!

shewhowines - our secondary school did that. But they also operated a policy whereby if you went on the trip, you caught up afterwards. So you borrowed notes, found out what homework had been set (and checked with the teacher if you had to complete it - some said yes, and you still had to do what they'd set that day as well). So it was kind of understood that if you wanted that holiday in school time, there was a bit of a penalty that went with it. (FWIW, I went! It was run as a budget trip - coached across Europe, staying in a freezing cold converted garage with eight to a room (bunk beds) and no room between the beds- it was a bit like sharing four to a bed. We had to take sleeping bags because they didn't provide bedding even! Never been skiing before or since, as wecouldn't afford to go as a family. But I had to work bloody hard afterwards to catch up and no sympathy shown by school! Worth it? Yes - some trips are more educational than school but if you go in school time you have to accept that you miss stuff and be prepared to do the catch up.
If you have young chldren, you have to be prepared to put in time to help them catch up (or expect the teacher to, which isn't fair on the other kids in the class).
No diffeerent to working really - how often do you go on holiday from work only to come back to a 10 page long 'to do' list!

School ski trip coming up for Year 10 DD. Taking place in half-term so they don't miss school. Almost missed out on the ski-wear hire, as lots of other schools are going at the same time. Being bussed over to Austria and staying in buget accommodation. Still expensive though and the one big trip during her time at secondary that we've budgetted for (and will for DS1 and DS2). Any other trips taking place during school time tend to co-incide with enrichment days when timetable is suspended. The workload in years 10 and 11 is big - DD wouldn't entertain the idea of a holiday in term time at the moment, regardless of where we'd go and how much money we'd save.

baby haha! i don't think that watching me lie on a beach comes under the education catagory - i think it comes under the 'this is my holiday and what i like to do for 2 weeks and i think you can make sandcastles and swim in the sea' catagory. Not everything has to be educational.

Which is education of sorts; resourcefulness, independence, a loathing of beach holidays, a love of the sea - whatever.

Personally i love active hols and camping, probably because my parents hated them. They hated them because they were forced to go on them as kids - so i can see the pattern emerging here!

My dc will probably hate art as traipsing around galleries is my thing - they defo would prefer the sunbathing i think!

(i dont have dc yet btw but am preggers with our 1st - i just hate the way childhood appears to be taking over everything in society!)

Ah, see now, if you're taking your kids to art galleries then they're not going to just be sat on the beach with a child minder for 2 weeks, are they?!

Again, there's a lot I agree with - sometimes people can be a bit too child focussed, for instance (I had one friend whose first trip anywhere without her son was the first day he went to school -she had not been anywhere without him, or let him go anywhere without her, before then!). But, their education isn't one of those times when it can be too much about kids. And if you don't want them to get that education at school then the responsibility is on you to get them an education in other ways! And yes,some sand castle building is great and really important, but that to the exclusion of everything else is a bit wrong, I think.

FWIW I do think people need to be a bit careful about the whole 'Just because I have a kid my life won't change' thing which is the other side of that coin. Well, it should. You chose to have kids, now you have to deal with the responsibility and other crap that comes with it. And seeing that they learn the things they need to know, not only to survive but to do as well as they can in life, is your job. Schooling is part of that - only part, but a big part. Kids will be taken out of school but don't make up that time back in school while everyone else goes on holiday (if that makes sense!) so you have to do it. It's where it's different to work - if I don't work, then the work just sits there till I get back. Kids not in school, school moves on without them.

I suspect, as this conversation goes on for longer, that actually we do the same stuff (taking kids to art galleries etc). I would prefer not to do it in school time unless I really have no choice (like when I take my dd to see her family in New Zealand) and see it as fun but tick off an 'educational' box in my head at the same time. Which doesn't really sound a million miles from where you are!

Childhood isn't taking over society, it's just where we're all at at the moment, so it's a big part of our lives.

I remember sitting at a post-natal group with a barrister, two solicitors, a Guardian journalist and others discussing how to get banana out of bibs - because that was a particular issue for us at that time. Nothing in the run up to the birth of your DC prepares you for how difficult banana stains are to remove from clothing.

i disagree scholes i think there is a general move in society for everything to be child focussed; tv progs etc. But that is a different subject to this thread. Altho i do think it links in.

baby yes I like art galleries but my parents didn't and i still defend their decision to take me out of school, to take me to spain and put me in a kids club - while they lay on the beach. I was talking about that type of hol, not my type of hol really.

Criminal Record: I'm sure that's only possible if the fine is not paid & the matter is prosecuted thru the courts. Bit like not paying TV license. It only becomes a criminal matter if you refuse to pay the fine.

£100/child on top of holiday costs (flight, lodgings, souvenirs, passport?) is cheap, really.

I do feel YANBU to OP title... wrt to Cost being cited as so important. That is pants, and I don't really get this "we must have an annual holiday away" stance, either. I know lots of folk IRL who don't ever go on holiday.

But as thread shows, there are lots of other more compelling circumstances why people take term time hols. I take DC out of school for 2-3 weeks every four years to go visit family who live 8 time zones away (extended family doesn't gather in British summer school holiday time, or I would go then). Those excursions, once every 4 years, are almost the only family hols we ever take. DC get odd weekends away at their granny's otherwise, and I almost never go anywhere.

The majority of responsible parents would take the opportunity to "educate" on holiday to a certain extent. We have always taken ours out in primary and always made them do a diary with stuck in photos/pamphlets etc even without being asked by the teacher. The children now have these in their "baby boxes' and they are a brilliant record of their holidays over the years and they love to get them out periodically. In fact on the few occasions we didn't ask them to do them, they asked if they could!

I suppose the problem lies with those parents that aren't concerned about their childrens education but it has become too much of a "nanny state". Teachers don't hover over these children to make sure they put in extra effort on their homework or revision normally- they reap their own benefits of their own efforts. Parents and older children themselves should take some responsibility for catching up after a holiday as babybythesea mentions earlier.

Why should the majority of responsible parents suffer the inconvenience/cost of holidays outside termtime because of the irresponsibility of some?

BabyByTheSea We are in exactly the same situation as you, DH is Australian and all his family are over there. It is very important to us that our children grow up knowing their family and the only time that makes sense for us to go over is in January (to fit with DH's job and with jobs of family over there).

At the moment we have another few years before they start school but I'm dreading it becoming an issue. We'd probably only go for 2 weeks but for is it it non-negotiable. I don't even see it as a holiday as such, I see it as a very rare chance for my kids to get a cuddle from their much loved granny.

As a teacher I have no issue with term-time holidays as long as the parents and dc realise they will have to catch up in their own time and possibly attend after-school revision near exernal exams. My only issue comes when holidays are taken in the run up to exams, which are in November, January, March and May/June for year 10 and 11. It would probably be sensible to avoid taking a holiday in those GCSE years.

As a parent and a teacher I certainly don't think society is child focussed, at all!

Oh, and when they ate children I think it is only fair to do things for them that they enjoy. When they are grown and gone I will have plenty of years to do whatever un child friendly stuff I want, as I did before they came along. I suspect that when you have children your idea of a fun, relaxing holiday may change somewhat too Spuddy!

Oh bloody hell, obviously I meant when they are children, not when they ate children...I can't ever remember I time when they ate children!

ninky personally my idea of a hol isn't just laying on a beach. So will be taking dc skiing, biking, climbing and to art galleries - which is what DP and i like doing now. Of course once they are here all i may want to do is lay down very still for 2 weeks!!

as for child focussed, i suppose i mean what i see as the infantilisation of society; with very little personal responsibility and a lot of 'spoon feeding' going on. Having worked in secondary schools and uni's, i cannot believe how over indulged and expectant young people seem to be. Which i think comes from everyone fussing about what their 'needs' are too much.

i have promised myself i will never go to disney(anything)!