The old chestnet about holidays in term time because they are cheaper.

[troisgarcons]

School Y4/5/6 meeting this evening about changes in Ofsted and the way information will be reported to parents (and parental responsibility in supporting educational standards and methods).

To summarise, every child will have an individual "flightpath" according to ability but some things are governemnt measures and therefore immovable.

One of which was attendance. So once we'd got past the hysterical parent ranting about her particular case of chicken pox which dipped her child below the target threshold of 95% and illness not being a childs fault and the heckler spouting disability discrimination sigh we had She-who-wants-holiday-in-term-time spouting at every opportunity.

It got to the point where I was having fantsies about ripping her tongue out and after and hour of this - the Head made it clear there are 365 days in a year, of which 190 are school days , therefore there are a rather large amount of days not at school to have "family time". And still the parent kept on and on and on and on .....after an hour of her chirping in at every opportunity I pointed out that if she wished to remove her child for one or two weeks that was her prerogative but her selfishness impinged on my child learning as when her child returned lessons would have to be summarised.

I asked how she would feel if her childs teachers were feckless enough to book holiday in term time and leave her child without continuity of education.

She said "well, you just sound like a teacher and thats your career choice so I expect you to be in school when I want you there!!!"

So I played devils advocat and said "are you saying my right to family life is lesser then yours?"

To whit she said "you signed up for it"

So for all of you (including me) who do look @ school statistics - just remember - that with the best will in the world, there are mardy parents who just do not co-opt into the educations system and will probably have monumental hissy fits when little Jaydeen-Beckham and Beyonce-Chardonay'ah dont achieve anything much at the end of their school career and leave with a monumental sense of entitlement that the entire world owes them a living.

and breath

AIBU to get that off my chest?

[tyler80]

Nottingham city have just decided to go to a 5 term system whilst the county will remain on a more traditional system. I can only see that there will be a lot more holidays in term time soon as I know people who have children in primary schools in one area and secondary schools in another.

Imo time as a family is important and I think taking children out of school when they otherwise have good attendance isn't the worst thing in the world .

[dandelionss]

YABU.As if a week out of school a year is going to make the slightest dent on her long term prospects (unless a 5/6th former possibly) .
YABU if you think it is going to impinge on other kids learning.
YABU if you think family holidays are unimportant
YABU if you think paying say £1000 extra for your family holiday is the best way of spending £1000 on your children's education
YABU if you think the UK workforce could accommodate every parent taking annual leave in school holidays
YABU if you think airlines, hotels etc have sufficient capacity to accommodate every family in school holidays
YABU to not consider private schools which have considerably longer holidays thanstate schools.
YABU to think closing schools for strikes won't affect the kids education but a day for a family holiday will.
YABU to equate a teacher taking time off with a pupil doing the same.The teacher is the service provider, there for the benefir of the child.the child is the service consumer ,there purely for their own benefit.

[NinkyNonker]

By all means go on hols. But it will compromise their attendance figures (not the biggest deal) and don't expect teacher or school help catching up.

[NinkyNonker]

Ps: the difference between a strike day, private school hols etc and taking a child out during term is that all children have the same deal in the first examples, whereas one child misses out and risks falling behind in the latter.

[aldiwhore]

YABU.

I agree with Bogeyface. My child's education is important, and education doesn't just happen in school.

My child is doing well, loves school and I see it as MY responsibility to get my child up to speed after a holiday and not fall behind. All I ask is a general idea of where they're at, and I know what they're going to miss.

School IS important, but so is life. My DH is self employed and his biggest contracts tend to coincide with school holidays. We cannot plan our calander, we live a long way from the GPs (hence our holidays are always with them) and I flat refuse to pay £1500 for a cottage that costs £500 out of holidays.

I am also not a fan of statistics, nor the emphasis on attendance (though I understand that it does give useful information) we also have a Headteacher that sees great value in sometimes missing school. A child who has been absent due to holidays (authorised) is required to keep a diary, and do a show and tell style talk on their return which links in with the sylabus. My son gained a lot with his Beach Pebble Numeracy, probably more than he would have done on that particular week in school.

Yes there are parents who take the piss. There are also people who cannot see beyond numbers on a page. You choose how to roll. I respect anyone's decision to keep their child in school come hell or highwater, that is there right and choice. I expect people to not assume I don't care because I choose a different path.

Thankfully our Headteacher is fully supportive and understanding that each family has a different dynamic and we don't all fit into the 9-5 book a holiday in January routine.

[dandelionss]

Ninky Nonker- have you ever been in a primary school? It is predominantly about aquiring skills rather than knowledge.They don't do something once and then move on.they cover the same thing time and time again because many don't get it the first time round and those that do need to regularly practise it.

[NinkyNonker]

Yes, of course I have (spent significant time in one on teacher training...). I was pointing out that there is a difference between one child missing a fortnight or a week, and all thus children missing a day, or having a shorter term.

[NinkyNonker]

And I've already said I'm not set against parents taking hols in term time, at all. But there is a difference between the scenarios you suggest.

[BettySwollocksandaCrustyRack]

I refuse to be dictated to about when I can and cant take my DS on holiday....I am his parent and I feel the responsibility should lie with me as to whether I think it is reasonable or not for him to be taken out of school for a week or so.

DH and I cant always get holiday time in school holidays so generally we do take DS out for a week, maybe two every year although to be honest once he goes to senior school we probably wont.

I think it does him good to see new places, learn new things, new cultures etc etc. However, I would never dream about asking the teachers to put in extra time getting him to catch up on stuff he has missed, that is my job and so far he has never missed anything life changing!

I dont know why other parents get so het up about it...if you dont agree with taking your kids out of school then done, simple!!

That woman sounded bloody rude though so I would probably have disagreed with her just to piss her off a bit more :)

[BettySwollocksandaCrustyRack]

Oh yes, forgot to say....our head is very good about this and we get 10 days a year where we are premitted to take the kids out of school.....so it has never been a problem for us anyway and apart from that DS's attendance is spot on :)

[duckdodgers]

Ninky "I genuinely don't object to the principle of hols in school terms (though not sure what a week eating chips on the Costa del Sol is going to teach most children) but do so accepting the consequences."

You seem to have a very stereotypical view of a "Brit abroad" type holiday for some reason, there is a big world out there with lots of different things to see and do. Personally we drive to France every year but if someone wanted to spend their holiday on a beach in Spain - what exactly is wrong with that? Why should holidays be about "teaching" children anway, its a time to rleax and spend time as a family.

[lesley33]

YANBU in being angry at this parent. But tbh I used to get annoyed at the grief I got when my dcs were younger and I did take them out of school for a holiday.

With the job I was in I was not allowed to take any annual leave during school holidays at all. So if we wanted to go anywhere for longer than the weekend for 11 years this went on, I had to take them out. But I found teachers had zero sympathy for this. I just got told "useful advice" like - just explain to your employer that you can't take your kids away during school time. Yeah, like that worked!

[Spuddybean]

agree with duck my 7 yo neices get taken to lanzerote, they get the excitement of going on a plane, meet new people, interact with other families and friendly waiters, learn spanish words, taste new food, join the kids club where they learn dance routines and songs etc, make sand castles, improve their swimming, go in the sea etc

They have a love for travel, food and languages already and i think that is very valuable.

[lesley33]

tbh I think it is about the time being spent together as a family that is important without everyday distractions, other family and kids friends around. It doesn't have to be educational in the formal sense. But it is about them experiencing something a bit different and realising there is a big world out there.

[NinkyNonker]

Oh fgs. I wasn't saying that all families go on that type of holiday. But some do! And in those instances I don't see the educational relevance. Blimey.

Anyway, as I have said, many, many times...I have no objection to holidays in school time.

[NinkyNonker]

And before my harmless aside gets leapt on yet again, I don't think all hols need to have educational relevance. But it gets pulled out of the hat many times by parents, realife and on here, and in some cases you'd be hard pressed to explain how.

[duckdodgers]

fgs yourself ninky I never said you did - I said you seemed to have a very stereotypical view because thats what you wrote.

[NinkyNonker]

It was an aside. It wasn't the main point of my post, which was in agreement with holidays being taken. As a teacher, I see many children going on holiday, many of whom are going on the type of holiday I mentioned. By describing my aside as holding a 'stereotypical view', you imply that that is how I view all holidays taken abroad by Brits. It isn't. But it happens, which is why I mentioned it.

[NinkyNonker]

Having re read your post, you were informing me there is a big world out there, implying that I did, in fact think that all families went on 'that' type of holiday...

[duckdodgers]

Yes Im sure it does as beach package holidays are popular which is why there is such a view of a Brit abroad type holiday. Ok you dont hold that view, but thats how it came across.

[babybythesea]

I read threads like this with interest, because although it doesn't affect us yet (dd is 3) it will soon.
DH comes from New Zealand, and all his family (3 sisters, all married with 2 kids each, and his parents, not to mention sundry other aunts/uncles/cousins/mates etc) are there. So far, trips to New Zealand to see his family have happened about once every three years, and we go in January. a)the weather over there is better and b) the 6 Kiwi kids are on their big holiday so we actually get to spend lots of time with them. Our trips over there are in part funded by his family, none of whom can afford to fly over here, but if they all put into a kitty then between us it makes our trips there affordable.
The problem will be that once our dd is in school,we either cannot continue with this, or we will have to take her out of school.
The current plan is to talk to the school and see what they say - we are planning to go next year (dd will be 4) so the next trip won't matter as she won't be in school yet. And then it'll be three years before it's an issue.

But still, it will involve her being out of school for near enough a month. At the moment, we are thinking that if we talk to the school well in advance then we can plan work accordingly - take stuff with us etc, and also talk to them about what else we could do with her while out there (whether going to see lots of Maori things, to learn about another culture, is worth while for example).

Down side -she misses loads of school (three consecutive weeks every three years).
Up side - she gets to spend lots of time with her family, people that she almost never sees (although we Skype - but it's just not the same), and she gets to see where her Daddy grew up and to meet the people that are important to him. And her birthday is in January so we get to share it with DH's family which is lovely.

If we go another time of year, then the Kiwi kids are all in school and we won't see them anywhere near as much, especially because two of them live some distance away so can't pop over in the evening very easily.

As I say, it's not an issue yet. But it will be.....

[ThisIsANickname]

It cracks me up when people say that they wouldn't mind in primary school, but would never dream of taking a child out of school when they are in secondary education.
Primary education is when most of the learning they do will be brand new to them. Learning to read. Learning to write. Learning new words and expanding their vocabulary. Learning basic maths concepts. Learning basic social skills.
Secondary education is much more about developing existing knowledge into details (the majority of which are unimportant), and refining the skill of learning. The stuff you'd miss out on in secondary school is not nearly as time sensitive as the stuff in primary.

People who are OK with their child missing primary lessons but not secondary ones have got it the wrong way around IMO.

But FWIW, I don't think there is anything inherently wrong with doing either occassionally. For those who keep spouting that teachers choose their career so should understand that they won't be able to holiday whenever the feel like it, just remember that you chose to have children so should understand that you can't holiday whenever you feel like it either.

[cidrenomore]

Interestingly, back in the 80's (I think), my DM was a secondary teacher. She was involved with school trips abroad with her pupils and somehow we could go with her too, although she was always 'on duty'. I was late primary, and my DB early secondary. These trips were always the last week of the summer term, so we all...teacher and pupils...missed school. I don't suppose that would happen now.

[pearshape]

I find it unfair that the children of parents who are not super well off have to miss out on holidays abroad and the experiences of travel as their parents can't comfortably afford to go in the school holidays. Children of parents who are well off can enjoy holidays abroad and get to experience different cultures. It's not fair to say that if you can't afford to go in the school holidays then you shouldn't go abroad. Holidays in England can be ok but we've had a couple and the weather's been so dire no-one has enjoyed it. I think holidays are so very very important for families. The highly inflated prices charged by holiday companies during the school hols need to be addressed. We make our best memories while on holiday. My dc's still talk about a holiday we had abroad a couple of years ago and have fantastic memories.

[babybythesea]

I think I see what Ninky is saying.

I worked in a school once where two kids in the same class had holidays in term time.

One went for two weeks to Oz. She (at age 5) knew that the money was different, she could point it out on a map, she could tell you some of the animals there that we don't have in the UK, she showed some understanding of who the Aborigines were, and she could pick out some landmarks she'd visited.

The second child went to Spain. He didn't know where he'd been, he didn't know about any different foods he'd (not) eaten, he had no concept that another language had been spoken, all he knew was he dug sandcastles with the lady from the hotel. Now, digging sandcastles is a valuable experience. But is it more valuable than being in school, for this child? Probably not. And he did seem to spend a fair bit of time in a kids club which means family time can't be used as the main justification.


I think if you want to take kids out of school, and I am likely to be doing it myself for significant chunks of time, then you do have to do something useful with that time. There are so many great lessons the kids could learn from travelling, but you need to be active in helping them to learn those things (Wow, did you hear that? I don't know what that person said - I don't think it's our language). Taking your kids out of school and then not providing any of these others elements which could really help them learn about the world is, for me, the real issue. (And then expecting the teacher to spend extra time with your child to help them catch up afterwards!)