To expect a midwife to carry out termination duties?

[foglike]

To think a midwife has to carry out these duties and not claim religious discrimination because she's catholic?

bbc link

"It is a predominately 'happy' job."

Aw, wouldn't want to spoil your day with actually doing your duty by women would we?

That seems a little mean Rational

I'm sure carmen provides a lot of valuable care to many women, including the care she gives to those having terminations.

I'm sure she does, shame she's not opened that up to all women going though termination. Shame she's completely judgmental about one group and full of sympathy for the other. Outrageous that someone is so at ease with their judgmental attitude.

I' be interested to hear her response to my post.

carmen what would your stance be on caring for a woman giving birth, who was in prison for murder, or who had in the past been convicted of murder?

What then? Do you treat them, or do you exercise your right to refuse? Is there a right to refuse in this circumstance, as there is with abortion?

Rational, where the hell have i expressed 'outrage??

In my unit, and in my role as a midwife, I care for women undergoing TOP at various gestations, usually around 20 wks, when these women have had the anomaly scan. Though sometimes earlier and sometimes 24-28 wk . Not usually later than that though as most women who decide to terminate want it over as soon as possible, understandably.

I am not suggesting that women who have a 'social' TOP are treated differently. and by social I mean a woman who is not aborting because her baby is handicapped. Of course these women should be treated in the exact same caring and compassionate way. What i am saying it is not my role as a MIDWIFE.

As for what abnormalites are acceptable reasons to abort then that is not my decision. This is discussed with the doctor who decides whether the baby is compatible with life, or will have a poor quality of life due to an abnormailty.

On a personal level I would not have a TOP myself. That is not to say i don't believe other women should not either. I totally understand womens reasons for TOP and support women who find themselves in this situation.

Again, i will say it is part of my role to care for women who terminate for medical reasons, not social. Just as it is not a gyneacology nurses job to deliver a full term baby.

I don't think some people know the difference between nurse and midwife.

Do nurses generally have an opt-out for those who have committed crimes?
Do doctors?

I ask as presumably someone who is so opposed to abortion as to see it as akin to murder (which of course it isn't) wouldn't treat an actual murderer is their life depended on it.

I think it has been made quite clear previously that the ONLY opt out is for DIRECT involvement in termination of pregnancy at whatever gestation.
There is no option to opt out of caring for anyone else, no matter what they have done. You are professionally obliged to do so.

I do, as stated in my post I had a termination with the drugs and care provided to me by a midwife in the maternity unit. That your hospital does not do this is not indicative of all hospitals.

I asked your opinion on the level of abnormality that in your opinion is acceptable to abort, you evaded this question. At what level of 'quality of life' do you draw your line?

I did say 'almost', you're obviously biased against 'social' terminations, in fact stating you would opt out of involvement on 'moral' grounds. You made it abundantly clear that the two scenarios are different.

Are you for real rational? Yes, my job is 'happy'. I trained to be a midwife because I wanted to give good care and support to pregnant women and women and babies postnatally. As a general rule, most babies are born healthy and its a happy event. Occasionally abnormalities are detected and women terminate. I care for these women too!! In the same way as if they were giving birth to a live healthy baby.

Women who have TOP'S reasons other abnormality do not go to a midwife. They are looked after on a gynaecology ward or are seen in a private abortion clinic.

Am i really being slated for not wanting( or expected) to work in this area. IT IS A TOTALLY DIFFERENT JOB!

And sardinequeen of course I would care for a woman who had committed a murder. I haven't said that i object to any area of my job, only that i could object to giving certain drugs. Not that i do, though.

Then how come the midwives are complaining about doing the before and after care and people are saying that is right?

How can it possibly be the case that a woman having a termination is too evil to go near, while mass murderers and serial child molesters are fine?

Personally I think someone like Fred West is worse than a woman who decides to have an abortion. That may just be me though

So to your mind a woman who wants a termination for reasons that you do not approve of, is a worse person than a serial killer.

I am a bit confused by all of this now. It doesn't seem to make any logical sense.

"Women who have TOP'S reasons other abnormality do not go to a midwife. They are looked after on a gynaecology ward or are seen in a private abortion clinic."

Twice now I have given you the example of 'me' who was cared for by a midwife during and after termination in an NHS maternity unit.

I'm taking objection to the reasons you're giving for not wanting to work in one area while willing to work in another where the outcome is the same.

I think that people who are going to object to doing things that might reasonably be expected of them, and that are legal, should be screened out at application stage TBH.

It is not reasonable for people working in the NHS to decide who they do or don't want to treat based on their own personal religious / moral / other ideas.

I think most people on here, of whatever other opinions, would think she is being a bit unreasonable to refuse to care for women before and after the termination.

But i should probably read the link, and find out more about this woman's position.

rational, I really do not see why it is relevant as to what level of abnormality it is ok terminate. In my professional capacity that is not my responsibilty to decide whether or not a woman has' grounds' to abort.

On a personal level, I would not want to abort a baby at all. That does not mean I think someone else is wrong for aborting a baby with spina bifida, just because I wouldn't do it!!!

In my unit, the only TOP'S I am ever involved with are those for abnormality. iF, I was asked to look after a woman who was terminating for another reason then I would still care for her the same, check she is comfotable, do observations, make her a cup of tea, give her pain relief, chat about the weather etc. The only difference would be is that I could opt out of administering the abortifacients.

"NHS GGC, which is contesting their action, said it recognised their right not to participate in terminations under the terms of the Abortion Act.

But it maintains that it decided correctly that requiring them to delegate staff to nurse women undergoing medical terminations and to supervise and support staff undertaking that duty was lawful."

They don't even want to have to ask someone else to go and look after women who have had terminations. Lest they be sullied by association, or something

you know i had a medical management following missrd miscarraige of wanted baby i was on gyae ward and the new shift doctor and murse both female were noy v mice to me when i asked to go home, they wavef the jar of 'product' in front of me and saod if i went home and bled i could die i wasnt given a proper bed and ward had noro virus on

i always wondered why they werr like this maybe they didnt realise the reasom for tjr medical management and judged me

sorry just off loading i guess i have by far been treated excellently by many mamy yjrt healthvate professipals.

I don't recall any of the midwives on here saying they would refuse before or after care. I may be wrong as I have been following from the beginning and not re-read. People who are not in the profession, and I am thankful that they are not, are the ones who have been vociferous in their views.
For the record, I am pro-choice and I have looked after women throughout the process of all kinds of termination. I have cared for people in custody as a nurse and a midwife. We don't usually know the reasons for their imprisonment. I don't believe it is my job to judge at the point of care.

SQ,

I dont think they are objecting to the 'before and after care' of the woman as you have said. According to the article they are objecting to having to "delegate, supervise or support staff in the participation and care of patients through "the processes of medical termination of pregnancy and feticide".

It doesn't make clear what supervising and support actually involve so people on this thread have simply been speculating. I don't think anyone would think it was appropriate for someone to refuse to make a woman a cup of tea simply because she has had a termination but I can completely understand why a midwife who has conscientious objection to abortion would not want to stand and attend an one on a supervisory capacity. I can also understand how delegation could feel like involvement.

People are still focussing on the fact that these women are Catholic and discussing the religious aspect of this. They seem to be forgetting that you do not have to be Catholic/any other religion to be able to use conscientious objection even though it has been mentioned about 100 times on this thread! I honestly think people just like to do a bit of Catholic bashing at every possible opportunity on MN!

Midwives and nurses cannot refuse to care for women before and after TOP. jUST the involvement in the procedure/giving of drugs.

rational, in the main, my job is not about terminating any pregnancy. If I wanted to specifically care for women undergoing termination then I would have been a gynae nurse or applied to work in a private clinic.

However, from time to time I see women who do terminate and that is fine. I would imagine most midwives do not regualarly see their role as being involved in termination. Why is that so odd.

And sardine queen I do not get to choose the type of women I care for!! How ludicrous. I see women who are prostitutes, drug dealers, criminals. My job is to deliver a healthy baby. mY personal opinion on their lifestyle has nothing to do with my job, otherwise I would have no patients!!

SQ, the law says it is reasonable for people not to be involved in abortion. That is not what is up for debate here. If conscientious objection wasn't available the NHS would be losing a lot of excellent staff.

Sq, I think you're assuming a lot. I reslly doubt that they are refusing to delegate someone to go and care for a woman. I think they are probably refusing to delegate someone to do the abortion becaue they feel that involves them in the procedure. I'm not sure if you read the whole thread but I used a hitman analogy earlier to illustrate how involvement can be perceived even if you do not commit the act yourself...

carmenelectra

You're still differentiating between the two scenarios. Now you've given an example of an abnormality that you think it's acceptable to abort without moral judgement, spine bifida. So in your book, a woman who chooses to abort a foetus because the subsequent child may have a level of paralysis shouldn't be judged on your moral scale, yet a woman who chooses to have an abortion where the subsequent child is unwanted, not financially prepared for, may end up in the social care system should be judged on your moral scale.

see i would feel comfortable
if i knew i wasnt being judged it is a hard thing to go through even when you are 100% re decision pro choice.

dont doctors have to respect the group of people who refusr blood transfusions even if it endangers tjheir life so if dr respects their right to non treatment them surely a carer can respect their right to treatment?

I wasn't supposed to be back on this thread, but just to clarify: the RCM policy on conscientious objection is very clear that midwives can opt out of all direct involvement in termination of pregnancy, but they CANNOT pick and choose between which types of abortion they will take part in. Neither can they discriminate between different women, and decide they will attend some and not others.

I think it is true that, generally, nurses tend to care for early TOP in gynae wards, and midwives tend to care for late TOP in maternity wards. But that is because of the stage of pregnancy, not because of the reason for the abortion. So if carmenelectra's Trust chose to move all abortions into maternity (just hypothetically) she wouldn't have grounds for refusing involvement, on the basis that she does not have a genuine conscientious objection to abortion per se.