Why do lots of people seem to try their hardest to make 'outspoken' people happy?

[AgentZigzag]

AIBU to suspect everyone knows someone 'outspoken'.

Those people who complain about everything, have to pass critical judgements on everybody, nothing's ever right for them, and worst of all they pride themselves on calling a spade a spade (but don't like it back).

I've noticed the people around them though seem to bend over backwards not to upset them, (although it's futile because they're never satisfied with anything) it's like they can't bear the thought of catching the difficult persons negative attention because this is much worse than telling them they're out of order.

Maybe it's something to do with wanting the persons approval?

Or is this what you do if you want the quiet life?

Well of course Boom, where did I say people can voice their opinions? Posters telling other posters off is not going to work though.

Clara, do you not understand that all I am trying to do is point out to you that it is not on to name another poster like that. There's nothing wrong with having an opinion, but once you start naming it becomes a personal attack.

"Posters who say XYZ are rude." - an opinion.

"AF says XYZ. AF is rude." - a personal attack.

That's all.

"that doesn't necessarily mean I only have time for people who are like myself." Why like "myself" Booma, what's wrong with "me me"

the person you describe isn't outspoken, they are rude and controlling. there is a difference.

I totally agree that "outspoken and not suffering fools gladly" is just a code for rude.

And it drives me barmy when people bow and scrape to people that are the loudest or have the strongest opinions or are most forceful. I have a tendency to ditch friends that are in both of these categories. I can't bear rude, gobby people and I can't bear those that act like sheep either!

I went on a girls' night out last year with a group of mums I had met at a baby group, so all fairly new friends, made within the last few years. There is one woman in the group that is known for being "outspoken". She makes a big deal out of everything and makes nasty passive aggressive comments to people that she says are just because she is "honest".

On the night out (we stayed overnight in a hotel too as it was in a city a couple of hours drive away) she took a disliking to me for some reason, probably because I refused to arse lick her and spent the whole evening behaving like a 5 year old; slagging me off very loudly to everyone. Linking arms with anyone who came near with me and telling them "Don't talk to her", and as she got more and more drunk being more aggressive towards me, constantly saying "Oi, fucking bitch" at me. I got very fed up with her at this point so started pulling her up on her behaviour only for the others to tell me to just "leave it" as apparently it's "just the way she is". We went back to our hotel and she was still ranting and raving so the rest of the group bar one all went back to her hotel room with her as she was so "worked up and upset". I got my stuff together and left, and haven't bothered with any of them since. Some have tried to contact me since and said she was out of order and they just wanted to keep the peace and have a nice night out, but perhaps the peace would have been kept better if they'd have told her they didn't want to hear her poison. Some have said she acted badly, but as far as I know they are still in contact with her.

I was happy to ditch the lot of them really; luckily I have plenty of other friends and these were relatively new friends so it's no loss to me really. Am just glad I found out what a load of idiots they were sooner rather than later.

Sarah you seem very upset about this. Are you AF? IF not, you need to relax a bit and calm down. She does not need you to fight her corner. You are coming across are rather hysterical about it all.

sleepymammary, not my mother, but definitely have my big sister in mind reading this thread. Especially Applemartini's point - "I notice that it is always people like this who say things like ' I just say what I think, what's wrong with being honest' who are more sensitive regarding their own feelings than anyone else. Sensitivity which only works one way apparently." So true!

But to get back to OP's questions on why everyone panders to The Outspoken One -
"Maybe it's something to do with wanting the persons approval?
Or is this what you do if you want the quiet life?"

I think in our family it is to do with genuine affection for her. Well, at first anyway. She was always blunt (a family trait, I fear) but wasn't always critical and negative. In fact, she was originally great fun, and even now if the chips were down I know I could depend on her for help although I'd never hear the end of it, ever. But, her willingness to criticise (although woe betide if you criticise her!) has driven a big wedge between her and the rest of the family. She stopped talking to us one by one; I got sick up of her having a go at me over the phone, so hung up on her. We haven't spoken for years now. Mum still does, as she doesn't want my sister to be completely isolated. We pandered to her until she crossed our individual lines (and I have some very forgiving aunts).

Personally, I think she is clinically depressed, and in denial. I tried to hang on in there with her, hoping she would seek treatment, but eventually, to my shame, I gave up on her too. Were she to deign to talk to me I would probably pander to her again, in the hope of her becoming herself at some time again. So no, I'm not seeking her approval or a quiet life, just the sister I remember who might return one day.

Well, I am confused. Mostly what has been described on this thread is bitchiness, aggressiveness, manipulation and nastiness. IMO being outspoken is having the guts to stand up at a parent/governor meeting and challenge something fundamental either about the management of behaviour, a budgetary error or a fall in rates of achievement. That I would do, politely, but I am not nasty or manipulative of generally horrid to people.

people that carry on like you clara, are often described as twattish, or a bit of a tit.

hth.

I think, marriedinwhite, that THEY regard themselves as being outspoken, while everyone else regards their behaviour as "bitchiness, aggressiveness, manipulation and nastiness."

marriedinwhite I would say that the personality/behaviour you are describing is assertive rather than outspoken. Outspoken to me = rude

And what WhereYouLeftIt said too

Why are you calling names Hully? Can you not express your disapproval of me without stooping to that?
What does 'hth' mean? Is it an insult or what?

That's definately what was in my mind when I wrote the OP WYLI, with emphasis on using it to manipulate other people.

It can take a while to realise what's going on, but after several rounds of the same old same old you can't help but notice it's them and not you. Then you feel stupid playing along for so long before plucking up the courage to confront them.

marriedinwhite, I think the point is that people indulge in bitchy, aggressive, manipulative and nasty behaviour which is then excused (by themselves, and the people enabling them) as "outspoken". There is nothing wrong with being outspoken as such.

The difference is that people who are genuinely just outspoken/opinionated/assertive, although they are more likely to offend others than "quiet" types, when it is pointed out that they have done so, will apologise (and by apologise I mean "I'm so sorry I said something hurtful, I didn't intend to"). Those who are aggressively outspoken will always blame the offended/hurt party for being "oversensitive" or similar, or the passive-agressive (contrast with the above "proper" apology) "I'm sorry you feel that way".

Yeah, I had an ex who was like this. Particularly when he said something offensive that he considered funny, but was actually hurtful: "Oh well that's just what I'm like, you thought it was funny when I said x about y, I'm not censoring myself for you and z thought it was funny when I said it to them and..." but god forbid I say anything negative to him, aargh...

Agree withwith where hexagonal and nella.

I think family members indulging these people is a horrible though understandable mistake.

Ultimately you can decide to cut them off. But if they've always been indulged they never learn how to negotiate with people and end up increasingly reactionary and more isolated.

Hard to know whether that bothers them. I think it does, though they'd never admit it. At the end of the day it is hard to care.

Thank you Hully.

I am not AF. I am trying to explain to you why what you posted was unreasonable.

You will find that posts that are considered to be personal attacks are removed. I won't report them, I prefer them to stand - gives others a better perspective of the author. But there are posters who will report.

You seem to be taking it the wrong way, I was actually trying to help you.

Oh I see. Thanks for your (ahem) help.

HexagonalQueenOfTheSummer you are better off without them. The person you describe personifies the OPs original post. I would not have gone back to the hotel room - she sounds like a bore.

Assertiveness is great. I think some people that define themselves as being opinionated/outspoken/assertive are often rude, baby adults with double standards.

Thanks Eggrules, I totally agree. I actually didn't realise how much the woman was getting me down until I ditched her after this, and as a group they were very cliquey and competitive. Can't wait to hear on the grapevine about who they've turned on in their group next

And I totally agree about the opinionated people often being rude, baby adults with double standards. It's all the "You take what I say the wrong way" and "Well sorry if you feel that way" that gives it away isn't it.

THEIR bad behaviour is somehow your problem?? You can only disengage or refuse to play. I would always say something though even 'that wasn't very nice'. If you don't you might as well agree with them; this is what happened to you.

Does 'opinionated' carry the same negative connotations as 'outspoken'?

Opinionated is defined as 'Conceitedly assertive and dogmatic in one's opinions'. Synonyms are obstinate - headstrong - stubborn - self-willed.

I think it can be a negative, more so when people describe themselves this way. Having a understanding of your own moral compass and knowing how you feel about issues is positive. Inflicted your strong opinions on others is rude and very boring.

I meant inflicting - sorry