to think this girl should be suspended for punching dd in the face?

[Crazybit]

dd in year 7 (aged 11) was in a corridor at school today, lots of pushing going on apparantly, dd was pushed into a girl, the girl turned round and punched her in the face.

The other girl had the upper school t shirt on so was at least in year 10 (minimum age 14) and ran off after it happened.

Thre girl has not been identified yet, dd did not know who she was nor did her friends but the school are going to attempt to find out who it was..by descriptions/pictures.

I don't know what the procedure is for this type of thing but what kind of consequences are likely/should their be?

dd has got bruising and headache but I'm quite worried about the psychological impact too as she was already suffering from anxiety related to a violent incident a few months ago.

Any advice on how I should deal with this? Don't want to baby her but also don't want to be unsupportive...also, I don't know what the school are going to do but AIU to push for suspension..or even to get the police involved?

I don't think anyone has covered that schools have CCTV covering every corner therse days. Certainly do round here anyway.

Yep, much further up thread. Was ignored.

If this had been my child I would not have sent her to school the following day and I would be waiting for the head to contact me before doing so.

This is so reminiscent of dd in Y7 of a state school that is outstanding but used to uber outstanding under a different head. After two years of struggling with bad behaviour of hearing of theft and fights and general disruption and watching dd get more and more upset and stressed because of the environment (actually about 6 girls who were allowed to pretty much do as they pleased), of listening to excuse after excuse about how they would settle down, how it was a bad intake, how it was an issue of resources, how it was a comp with a diverse intake, etc, etc, we transferred dd to the independent sector.

It is disgraceful that there are no longer boundaries or consequences in schools. It is even more disgraceful that those who are in charge of schools have allowed this happen. It helps nobody; it affect the achievement of the majority and it is corroding society (think gangs, knife crime and riots last summer).

Those who cannot behave in what should be a civilised environment in a civilised manner need to be taken out of that environment. I would be very happy to pay additional tax to fund specialist units/schools where problem children could receive the help they need. They do not get it in the current system where they dilute everything schools do for those who can behave.

I'd say get in there and refuse to allow your daughter to be someone else's punch bag. I have had a dreadful experience with my children at high school.

I came to the conclusion that whoever shouts loud enough is the parent who is heard by the school. Right or wrong, it doesn't seem to matter.

I will never again listen to schools who say they are "dealing with it". Show me the proof. Write to me with details of how you are dealing with it.

Make yourself the biggest pain the arse they have ever met. Kids deserve better than what goes on in most schools. Nobody much cares, nobody really knows sometimes who is right and who is wrong but schools can make a judgement on the balance of probability.

I removed both of my children eventually but sadly not soon enough.

One has now reached college age and is happy there and one went to another high school which is an 80 mile round trip a day. The only school I could find who takes the issues facing my son seriously. He is happy and safe. Just as it should be.

Op, don't let things escalate and dont take any rubbish from the people who are your child's parent when you are not there.

perfectstorm

"As I said, a kid is unlikely to do this without prior form. A bullying little madam is not an angel before she decides to punch a tween in the face over sod all."

It really shows how little you know if you believe this.

IDontThinkSoDoYOU

"but schools can make a judgement on the balance of probability."

and leave themselves open to law suits.

A school cannot make a judgement unless they have difinitive proof, any hole hole will see complaints, gorvernors overturning explusions, lawsuits and more.

I would definitely contact the police.
I'm a secondary school teacher and I have some "lovely" little darlings I am teaching at the moment (year 11 so 16 years old). I have had things thrown at me during lessons, and in the aftermath, have explained to the culprit, that if they had hit me, I would not hesitate to have them prosecuted for assault. According to them I "can't do that" because "we are schoolchildren" and as a teacher I should expect and put up with whatever behaviour they come up with. Basically, they believe they are untouchable when on school grounds.
I think even a stern talking to from a police officer would be enough to put the wind up students like this and make them realise that their actions are not acceptable and will have consequences.

It's incredibly sad that we expect our children to put up with environments that we would never tolerate in our own workplaces. I took my DD out of her secondary school because the punishments for incidents of physical violence were so laughably light.

I'm not sure about whether it's the right thing to involve the police or not - it could end up making things more rather than less complicated. But I would certainly be on at the school constantly until the matter is dealt with appropriately.

Boneyback

Lawsuit? Schmawsuit! Schools don't really give a shit, in my experience. They will lie and cover their own backs every time to the point of making up and adjusting paperwork so it looks better. I can promise you this was my experience.

I was offered by a solicitor to take my child's high school to court over what it did (or rather didn't) do but my priority was to get my child into education somewhere safe and suited for him and I have neither the time or the money to pursue their inadequacies in a court of law.

As the perpetrators of such behaviour often get off scot free or with laughingly ridiculous punishments, I can't see their parents going to court because their child had to sit in isolation for a day.

The previous poster is right when she says such behaviour wouldn't be tolerated in the workplace. It makes me very sad to know it is tolerated in a child's one.

Yeah I could be a bit over sensitive about this particular thing because I lived with it along with my children for too long. I'm not usually so militant but lioness and cubs and all that!

I agree. It is terrible that behaviour that is considered unacceptable in the work place or the street is just treated as par for the course in schools.

No wonder we are descending into lawlessness.

Until the school have completed their 'dealing' with it, the police won't get involved. They can only do so in relation to assault on school premises if the victim/parents are dissatisfied with the schools response.

So, even if the OP contacts the police - they won't record a crime until the matter is closed by the school, and only then if the OP goes back to the police to ask for the incident to be crimed because they are dissatisfied.

Yes, it is unacceptable that a child has assaulted another, but current legislation places the school as the primary investigative body, not the police.

< after several years working in a crime recording office, I still remember all sorts of random legislation!>

But so many kids are told by their parents that school staff are powerless to dscipline them. Add in the 'If anyone touches you then you punch them in the face and they won't do it again' mantra so beloved of some parents.

I don't have the answer, it's societal (is that even a word?)

[sad[

even - can you tell I'm feeling a bit disillusinoned with pretty much everything at the moment?

Thank you for all the replies.

Marriedinwhite-I sent dd in because she wanted to go, I think she wanted to be with her friends. I was in two minds but at the same time I did not want to add fuel to the fire if she develops a huge fear of going into school. That being said, if she had been reluctant to attend then I would probably have kept her off until it had been resolved.

Just to clarify..the exact story from dd is this: the corridor was very crowded, all the kids where shoving and pushing trying to make their way through, the older girl came out of a room forcing her way through the younger kids, dd was pushed/knocked into this girl, dd maintains she tried to get out the way after being knocked into the girl at that moment and moved into a corner, the girl turned around with an angry face, said ?that?s it!? and punched dd in the face. Dd said her head smacked into the wall as it happened. Dd stood there dazed and the girl ran off.

The Head of Year told me that pushing and shoving happens a lot in the narrow corridors as the school is ?oversubscribed?. He said even he has been knocked into.

Birdsgottafly-Not sure why you think this is the 2nd incident that dd was involved in? Do you mean when she started panicking when a boy pushed into her? I think this is what happens when schools have small corridors and they have around 1800 students changing over, I know it happened in my school and was just part of school life. Usually it is done with relatively good humour ime.

Composhat-dd has been told of a girl that is known for such things that is described as looking like her. All I meant was, that this is at least a lead to finding out who the girl is. It may not be her.

Notadisneymum-Thank you for that information, that is interesting to know.

Thank you for all the supportive comments. I will be following this up tomorrow with the school, and as dd says her cheek bone still hurts, going to take her to see GP tomorrow after school. I will be following this through even if it means contacting higher authorities but at the same time, I do feel that I need to at least let the school have chance to ID the girl and take action. If the action is not satisfactory then I will make sure they know this and take it from there. The HOY did say it?s the second time since Sep that an older child has walloped a year 7, I stupidly didn?t ask what the repercussions had been.

dd has expressed concern at having to go down that corridor again so this will be something that I need to mention to school also.

OMFG people think this is ok in a school?? Punching a first year in the face is a grey area? Fighting in queues, bundling other pupils?

So maybe that's actually what people mean when they say that going to a public school gives you a privileged upbringing: zero expectation of physical violence.

Re your DD going down the corridor, can you ask the school to give her a pass to be let out of lessons a couple of minutes earlier?
At my school we do this a lot for students with mobility problems or injuries that need to not be knocked (a broken collarbone and a head injury recently) so that they can avoid the crush. She can blame it on her concussion rather than anxiety if other kids ask.

Futurenanny-that is an option I suppose, but again, I don't want to add to her anxiety by confirming her fears iyswim.

Just out of interest and if you're anonymous enough to say..does this kind of thing happen much on your school? MIL is a secondary school teacher and she says that she has never heard of a such older child punching a younger child, arguing and threats yes, but not actual physical harm...and she works in a inner city girls school with a bad reputation.

Wouldn't it be better if corridors were manned by staff, children were taught how to walk quietly and nicely and if when they failed to do so, there were punishments.

Are teachers not involved in school design; do they not have years of experience from which to draw about such matters. My school was built in 1870 (ish); the facilities were dreadful with an outdoor block of lavatories, bettered cloakrooms, unreliable heating, showers that didn't work, broken sashes on the windows and no on site catering. It still got the best results in the county, there were no behavioural problems, the teachers were on whole committed and kind, the girls were encouraged to achieve.

Difference between then and now. 1) Expectations, 2) Freedom for teachers, 3) boundaries and consequences, 4) If a girl didn't behave, she didn't behave - no excuses - rules were rules.

Of course there was some bullying and the odd group of girls to be avoided but pupils did not swear where a teacher could hear, did not run in corridors, did not disrupt lessons and had a punch been thrown or a fight taken place I have no doubt those involved would have been expelled. One girl was I recall and everyone was supportive of the school over it.

Not like this, no. We have had stroppy girls getting into bitch fights, physical retaliation to verbal provocation and straight up fights on the field at lunchtime, but not random outbursts. Also when girls were involved, it has always been "known" troublemakers, your queen bee bully types and thankfully, they are a rare species. We are a very nice middle class school too
When I worked in a rough inner city school, it was worse, and there was physical bullying by older kids, but even then it was rare, and more, organised? Not an outburst but a decisive thing IYKWIM

"Anyway what she has or hasn't done in the past doesn't really come into it. "

In legal terms, you must know it absolutely does make a difference. The entire basis of previous character is based upon it. And in terms of the school's attitude, a one-off is hugely different from a course of conduct, too. The former may make her someone who has had a terrible day/week and acted completely uncharacteristically, and the latter makes her a regular bully of smaller children.

"I think part of the problem is that we are getting a partial account, second or third hand of a scrum type situation. The OP's daughter has given her side of events, but we can't hear the other side or how she perceived the situation. "

No, part of the problem is posters are ignoring the words actually given in favour of their own assumptions. It bemuses me. Why bother commenting on a post if you construct your own alternative scenario instead of facts actually supplied?

"Of course what she did was wrong, but I think that the call the Police/Private prosecution route is in the case of the former a sledgehammer to crack a nut and in the latter absurd/impossible."

I agree, and I stated as much in some detail in previous posts.

"IF this girl is identified and unless she's got a track record of this sort of thing, a stiff bollocking and a few weeks on report seem about right, along with a firm reminder to the year 7s not to mess around in the corridor. "

But I thought "what she has or hasn't done in the past doesn't really come into it"? So why does her track record suddenly matter? And if she has deliberately punched a smaller child in the face without provocation, she needs to be suspended. If it was a one-off response and she has some underlying extenuating circumstances, then I'd agree with a stiff bollocking and being on report. If this is a course of conduct it's risible to believe that a telling off and a bit of detention will mean a thing to her, why would it? Though for the record, I'd also want someone to look at what is going on with her. She may need some support as well as some discipline. This behaviour is not, in my view, normal. More common than we'd like, but not normal either. She may have issues of her own that need addressing alongside.

"I can understand the OP's distress, but really can't understand the baying for blood on this forum,what will criminalising a 14 year old child achieve, apart from making her virtually unemployable when she leaves school?"

I agree it would be complete overkill (and actually I think crininalising her would be likelier to entrench the behaviour than change it - labelling theory, and all that) but let's be serious, she'd be unlikely to be charged with anything unless she has existing form, and cautions are spent at once if simple/inside 3 months if conditional, so employability wouldn't be affected if they took that route. And as you know, juvenile convictions are generally spent pretty quickly anyway, so would usually only be known to an adult employer if an enhanced CRB were required. (And in any event, I know someone who cheerfully lied to their employer over their student-era cannabis conviction, before it was spent. Without a CRB check requirement, an employer has to take your word for it.)

My advice remains the Head, the Governors and then a formal complaint to OFSTED, if the school aren't taking such an incident seriously. That's what those systems of complaint are there for. But the OP is very sensibly giving the school time to resolve it before looking for further steps.

OP, good luck with all this and I hope the GP reassures you. Also hope the schoool handle it properly, for everyone's sakes - including the girl who did it. She needs intervention, I think. And your daughter needs to feel safe and protected in what is basically her workplace.

My DD was slapped round the face by another pupil in school. The school did nothing. I was flamed by some people on here for wanting to know how the girl was to be punished.....she wasn't AFAIK.
I am of the opinion now that schools will do everything to avoid confrontation with anyone about anything. They say they are 'dealing with it' and hope everything just blows over.

are there any witnesses? it was a busy corridor so many children must have seen it.

Crazybit - i think you have dealt with this well and i'm glad your daughter felt able to go straight back to school, however shaken she must feel at the moment.

Are you any nearer to identifying the girl? I agree I would wait to see what the school does first before going down any other route. I hope they act fast to send out a message of zero tolerance.

Hope your daughter is okay.

In answer to your last question, I used to be a secondary teacher, in a nice middle class school, and no, such a violent attack would have been incredibly unusual. However, when I was at secondary school in the 1970's the corridors were much riskier places, and reading your posts, I can visualise my old school very clearly. DS says that it would be unusual in his (very large) secondary school too, but not impossible. Schools can be places of high emotion and sometimes people lash out. Even nice schools can have characters who react violently or inapropriately to things.

Hopefully it will all be dealt with properly and you and your dd will be reassured. DS says that in his school, with a very clear disciplinary procedure, it would certainly lead to an internal suspension, if this were found to be a first offence, but more likely to a 2 day suspension, if the person had been in trouble before, and possibly to a more serious sanction if they were being closely monitored.

It occurs to me that the fact that this girl came out of a classroom into the hubub of the corridor, should make it easy to identify her. Your dd and her friends should be able to identify the room, where she was presumably having her last lesson, and a timetable will identify who was teaching there. The fact that, as I understand it, she coming out of the room into a corridor of smaller people, rather than with a whole classful of mates may mean that she had been kept back at the end of the lesson/was in trouble - again it may make her easier to identify, if the teacher in that room can remember keeping someone back. It may also explain why she seemed to be angry before being pushed into.

Hope your dd is OK today. I remember my very well liked and well behaved friend being involved in a similar incident when we were at school - a thump in the face completely out of the blue from a bad tempered, much older girl because she had "looked at her funny". She looks back and remembers feeling well supported by the school - hope that you and your dd feel the same.

I would get the police involved - but be prepared for them to refuse to do anything as the crime was committed in a school. legally they cannot ignore crime because it was in a school, but I have known of cases where they have done this (my friend was hit outside of school, by someone who was no longer in the school, and despite their injuries the police refused to do anythign as it was a school matter.
if the school pull the behavioural problems excuse, then say you will make a complaint to ofsted as they have a legal duty to protect your child from violence, and if they are aware of behavioural problems that lead to violence they should have had safeguards in place.

the only possible next steps are:

1. finding the alledged attacker
2. hearing her side of the story
3. finding any witnesses

otherwise we only know one version of what happened