to think this girl should be suspended for punching dd in the face?

[Crazybit]

dd in year 7 (aged 11) was in a corridor at school today, lots of pushing going on apparantly, dd was pushed into a girl, the girl turned round and punched her in the face.

The other girl had the upper school t shirt on so was at least in year 10 (minimum age 14) and ran off after it happened.

Thre girl has not been identified yet, dd did not know who she was nor did her friends but the school are going to attempt to find out who it was..by descriptions/pictures.

I don't know what the procedure is for this type of thing but what kind of consequences are likely/should their be?

dd has got bruising and headache but I'm quite worried about the psychological impact too as she was already suffering from anxiety related to a violent incident a few months ago.

Any advice on how I should deal with this? Don't want to baby her but also don't want to be unsupportive...also, I don't know what the school are going to do but AIU to push for suspension..or even to get the police involved?

It's out of order that they won't even talk to you about it. Go in and see them.

Even the most "middle class" of schools have violent/disruptive kids.

I went to a grammar school which was very middle class and it was quite violent. A boy in my class had his neck broken, someone else was kicked so hard in the bollocks it did permenant damage, someone else was chased my a mob out of the grounds and got run over by a bus on the road outside, someone else went to throw a punch and missed - put his arm through a window and cut an artery instead. My brother broke someone's nose by punching them.

I wouldn't write off the school over one incident. Hope they find the other girl.

I went in. I didn't want to be worrying all weekend. I waited for over 30 minutes to see the teacher 'dealing with it'. They have not ID'd the girl yet but he assured me that they are working on it. dd has heard rumours that a girl in year 11 matching the description has done similar before but she wasn't told this until on the way home so it hasn't been passed on to staff yet. dd is ok but still got a sore face. I'm more worried about the psychological impact...she said she started panicking when a boy pushed into her earlier.

If you contact the police though, then surely the school will drop it, otherwise she will be getting punished twice for the same offence.
If the police do ID the girl, I very much doubt they would do anything,the girl will argue that she was shoved first and be regarded as a playground spat.

The police will caution her and that will be on file. That is enough, if this was my kid I'd be raging, there is never any excuse for violence.

No way on gods green earth would someone ever be allowed to touch my child physically without something being done. Ive never hit them why should someone else get away with it.

Some of you on here sounds like you'd let your child get the fuck kicked out of them before you'd blink an eyelash.

dandelionss So what if the girl is getting punished twice for the same thing. The scare of having teh police involved might make her think twice before assaulting someone else's child and surely that can't be a bad thing??

My niece was beaten up quite badly last year by a fourteen year old girl (niece was in the same year at school but a couple of months older and had just turned fifteen).

This girl and her friends started by sending threatening messages on Facebook, then followed my niece one night and attacked her.

She was bitten, she had black eyes, bruises everywhere and needed hospital treatment. The three of them then walked away threatening to give her more of the same at school the next day.

The girl told the police it was a "pre-arranged fight" my niece had connected too (not true, she can be a gobby cow but she's not physically aggressive, and she's quite small, the other girl was bigger and has a reputation for fighting and violence).

The police were involved by the hospital but the school refused to do anything except put my niece into isolation because it happened off school premises. When told about the threats they said they couldn't isolate, exclude or expel the girls unless they followed through on their threats at school. Police dropped the case because apparently bite marks that last for a month, bruises, bloodshot, black eyes and a witness are not quite enough evidence

So involving the police is no guarantee OP. But I hope your daughter is feeling better and something does get done to find and punish the girl so she has the confidence to feel safe at school.

A classmate punched me once, her and her friends followed me to the toilets and she punched me and cut my face with the ring she was wearing. The police were not involved but the school expelled her for two weeks. It did make me feel better to know that something had been done.

Could do with the full story here.

Not just the one side, Violence is never the answer, but where I work we had a roaming group of yr 7s that where causing bundles and delibrately pushing other pupils around/in to the older years. As the older girl said "thats it" I suspect that this isn't the first time.

OP - I really don't understand why you sent your dd to school on Friday and why you haven't written to the head asking him/her to confirm in writing what steps they are taking to ensure her future safety. I would also have included a sentence that said: dd will not be returning to school until I am satisfied that an action plan is in place to deal with unacceptable behaviour and violence.

But Boney, it might not be the first time but it still doesn't mean we don't have the full story.

It sounds very likely that some pupils had pushed others and were causing a nuisance of themselves, but the OP's daughter wasn't doing the pushing, she got pushed and then she got punched. She didn't push herself into the older girl. She was the victim twice over.

"she got pushed and then she got punched."

we only know one of those for certain, and as to whether the other girl has form, we don't know because she can't be found cos they don't know who she is.

I suspect the "done this before" (paraphrase) is the bundling.

So boneybackjefferson if a girl gets pushed into you, it's OK to turn round and punch the girl is it? It is also the fault of the person who pushed and not the puncher? Interesting concepts those. Nobody made the puncher punch and two wrongs don't make a right.

marriedinwhite

I've already said that violence is never the answer.

Strictly speaking the girl who pushed the OP's daughter assaulted her, if we are going to judge the situation by adult standards. If the OP's daughter has pushed back, she has also committed an assault. The police will question and warn the girl, but won't take action, given the circumstances.

Schools have community officers todeal with such matters.

The OP shouldn't be writing letters, she should be speaking to the head, when they have had time to speak to the girls.

Trois- you are correct in saying that only as a very last resort would a child on a plan be excluded, normally a transfer would happen, not an exclusion.

birdsgottafly the push may have been accidental. A punch in the face is most certainly NOT accidental. Where has the world gone wrong? It is wrong to throw a punch and to make excuses that it was only done because of. This is part of what is so wrong with the education system today and why the state system is not working. Lack of boundaries, lack of consequences and far too many excuses.

Why is it wrong to set out in writing one's concerns? To do so provides an audit trail and ensures the school cannot deny a parent's concerns or backtrack at a later date.

Punching in the face by anyone is appalling, but by an older girl to a younger girl is disgusting.
You can probably take civil action if the police wont. If it were me, I'd sue the child for 100k for emotional distress and actual bodily harm. Too many few bad kids make school crap for the rest, and they get away with it cos people who are strong enough don't take a stand. Be it wimpy teachers or fellow pupils. More importantly because these thugs get away with violence at a young age they keep it with them as adults and its these people you see on the news having committing crimes all the time.
If you will take action you've got to be strong. I'd also agree, I wouldn't let your daughter back into school as i'd feel it is unsafe for her. I'd threaten to go to newspapers if they are failing to act.

I do feel sorry for your daughter and hope she is fine.

It might be a cultural shift since I went to school, but the talk of involving the Police and civil action (ffs!) seems ridiculous and absurdly heavy handed. Neither the school or your daughter know who the girl who gave her a whack is.

How much time do you think an over-stretched Police are going to spend identify an unknown school pupil? Even if the girl is identified, she will probably argue (with some justification) that she thought she was being assaulted when your daughter crashed into her.

"Even if the girl is identified, she will probably argue (with some justification) that she thought she was being assaulted when your daughter crashed into her."

You're kidding me, right? Your definition of "reasonable force" includes a kid who is at a minimum 14 punching a random 11 year old in the head? Or ANYONE doing that, purely because someone bumps into them? (Several kids apparently confirmed it was no more than the usual jostling.) Because I can assure you that the law disagrees with you in very strong terms! Head injuries can be incredibly serious, even without huge force behind them - it's an absolutely horrifying incident and if this were my child I'd be enraged.

If she behaves that way to a much younger kid then she absolutely needs to be hauled into line - suspension at an absolute minimum. The girl in question should be identified without huge difficulty given a lot of other kids will have been about, there will be photo records so OPs kid can look at them, and the school should know pretty damn well who might be capable. Kids don't act this way out of thin air - they will have shrewd suspicions, I would imagine, and the fact other kids think she has done it before adds to that.

If the school don't deal with this satisfactorily I would make a formal complaint to OFSTED. I'd also look into learning a bit more about the similar incidents and what they did to address those. And I would be moving my child. I don't care how good the school is meant to be, if they can't take safety seriously then it isn't a good school.

And she can argue what the hell she likes; there are witnesses to it who will disagree. Or is that not relevant?

"If it were me, I'd sue the child for 100k for emotional distress and actual bodily harm."

Can I ask how exactly you'd do that? Do you know many 14 year olds with a spare £100K lying about? Do you think a minor child has legal standing to be sued civilly anyway? And who would pay your legal costs - because they plainly couldn't, and you'd not get legal aid for it? And you can't pluck a number out of thin air when seeking compo; even with adults there are likely amounts to be awarded, and that is not on the same planet. I think you're confusing English and US law, here, tbh. It just doesn't work that way.

If the school were negligent and that directly led to the incident (supervision should have been present and wasn't, the girl is known to them as potentially violent) then OP might have a case against them, but it doesn't sound like they were unless the girl is an obvious accident waiting to happen. And the harm, though upsetting, is thankfully minimal - and that matters when seeking compensation, obviously. I just can't see a case.

I agree this is awful and something needs to happen, but let's not get carried away either. The school need to take it seriously and deal with it promptly but IMO the right recourse if they fail is the Head, the Governors, and OFSTED, in that order.

"the push may have been accidental"

The OP states that there was 'lots of pushing going on', tbh, this is one of my bug bares on buses, the kids think it is funny to push each other into adults, i have had to save a lot of elderly people from being knocked flying.

The head needs to be talking to everyone, including the OP's daughter about their conduct, especially as this is the second incident that the OP's daughter has been involved in, perhaps she is being used by others, or set up?
That is why the OP needs a face to face conversation, not letters back and forward.

Keeping her daughter off school may add to her anxiety.

I would hold fire & see how the school deals with it.

The CPS may well be reluctant to pursue a case where, realistically, your dd says she was punched (& would have to give evidence) & the culprit says no, she barged into me, I may have accidentally put out a hand to fend her off & she ran into it, & every other child present either supports the culprit's story or 'didn't see' anything or initially backs OP's dd before getting cold feet at giving testimony in court.

If the culprit had walked up to OP's dd on an otherwise deserted corridor & punched her, preferably on CCTV, that'd be different, but in a change of lessons melee on a crowded corridor? Next to impossible to prove sufficiently for criminal prosecution.

The school aren't bound by quite the same burden of proof. If your dd's assailant is identified, which she WILL be (the other kids will grass her up happily in school, as opposed to giving evidence in court) then it's likely that she'll be 'known' - the sort of child who'd smack a year 7 in the face generally is - & she'll be isolated or excluded.

I know it's not enough.

Perfectstorm

She didn't punch her 'at random' it wasn't as if she was picking out kids arbitrarily and whacking them.
If I am reading the situation right, the year 7s were arsing about playing bundles whilst waiting to go into a class and the OP's daughter was unlucky enough to be shoved into the back of this girl, who spun round and clocked her.

I am not saying what the girl did was right and the OP's daughter seems to have suffered for the horseplay of others in her class.

As Birdsgottafly points out, someone being shoved into you with some force can be enough to send you flying or at least bloody hurt.

Because I can assure you that the law disagrees with you in very strong terms!

The girl could claim that she believed she was being attacked (especially if her back was turned.) as under English Law self-defence is couched as:
'A person may use such force as is reasonable in the circumstances as he [subjectively] believes them to be,' regardless of the motivation of the person involved. The fact she hit her once rather than a sustained attack would also be used in a defence case.

The law even allows for pre-emptive strikes, even if you (wrongly) believe you are about to be attacked. (In fact when I worked for a Youth Offending Team it was a favourite defence of burly 6ft Coppers for pasting lippy 15 year old kids) but I am going off on a tangent.

But the OP has specifically stated that her daughter wasn't thrust with force.

"it was simply a case of lesson change over and there was a lot of pushing and shoving as in when you're in a queue, not that she flew into her."

She also says that the girl who threw the punch had long enough to turn around and give her a really evil look before doing so, and she made an irritated comment, so it wasn't a reflex response where she "spun round and clocked her", it was an angry one.

"dd said the girl turned round with a really angry face, said that's it and punched her in the face. She could describe her as being large built and a lot taller than dd. Also, other kids in her class have said the exact same thing to the teacher."

And finally:

"dd has heard rumours that a girl in year 11 matching the description has done similar before."

As I said, a kid is unlikely to do this without prior form. A bullying little madam is not an angel before she decides to punch a tween in the face over sod all.

Incidentally, if you've worked in the criminal law sector, you must be aware of the importance of examining words actually given by witnesses, and not the constructions placed upon them by uninvolved third parties. You're ignoring the events as described by the OP in favour of your own and other posters' interpretations.

don't think it's normal to be punched in the face in school at all, let alone by an older kid because you accidentally bumped into them. And the description of events given by the OP would be insufficient for a self-defence claim. The girl looked at the victim and had time to say something. She knew she wasn't at any risk at all.

"dd has heard rumours that a girl in year 11 matching the description has done similar before."

Wow, that really MUST be her. An unsubstantiated rumour. Anyway what she has or hasn't done in the past doesn't really come into it.

I think part of the problem is that we are getting a partial account, second or third hand of a scrum type situation. The OP's daughter has given her side of events, but we can't hear the other side or how she perceived the situation.

Of course what she did was wrong, but I think that the call the Police/Private prosecution route is in the case of the former a sledgehammer to crack a nut and in the latter absurd/impossible.

IF this girl is identified and unless she's got a track record of this sort of thing, a stiff bollocking and a few weeks on report seem about right, along with a firm reminder to the year 7s not to mess around in the corridor.

I can understand the OP's distress, but really can't understand the baying for blood on this forum,what will criminalising a 14 year old child achieve, apart from making her virtually unemployable when she leaves school?

It is unhappily the kind of thing that schools deal with day in day out and they should be left to get on with it.