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AIBU?

Share your dilemmas and get honest opinions from other Mumsnetters.

To say NO! to the backyard bungalow builder's latest application?

189 replies

OhDoAdmitMrsDeVere · 06/01/2012 18:31

Got a letter from planning today.

Neigbours finally got round to applying for planning for the humoungous fence they put up in the summer.

It is there to stop us seeing what is going on in the gym house they builit in their small urban back garden.

The fence is ugly and very tall. It is attached to the fence that we already have which is the regulation height so its is totally unecessary (apart from to act as a screen).

I dont like it, it impinges on my garden and my neighbours have behaved like total bastards over the bungalow that they should never have built.

What do I say in response to the letter. Are any of my lovely planning people around to advise on the wording?

If people are not familiar with the bungalow saga they can see pics in my profile.

OP posts:
AChickenCalledKorma · 07/01/2012 09:45

Regarding forcing it to go to Committee - the policy on that will vary from Council to Council and you certainly can't assume that you will be able to speak to the Committee. You wouldn't be able to at our Council.

And if the officers agree that it should be refused, you would just be wasting time, waiting for a Committee date, not to mention the risk that the Councillors wouldn't agree with them.

As far as the letter goes, just say what you really think.

AChickenCalledKorma · 07/01/2012 09:46

(But maybe not the wankspanners bit Grin)

missmartha · 07/01/2012 10:34

< you certainly can't assume that you will be able to speak to the Committee>

No, but you can certainly get your councillor to speak on your behalf. One of the things they are voted in to do.

Well worth doing I'd have thought. MrsDeVere my sweet, are you still having [robs with the wording?

WhatstheScenario · 07/01/2012 10:38

Just saw your pics. I cannot believe the height of that wall. Pisstakers!

Jins · 07/01/2012 12:12

MrsD your LPA doesn't seem to be too bad. Trust the officers on this one. They appear to be on your side.

Has MissM come back with a draft letter yet? Don't send anything in until she's had a look. She has far more relevant experience than me.

MissMarjoribanks · 07/01/2012 14:11

I'm going to draft the letter tonight after DS is in bed.

Jins if you've got access to DCP / Compass can you see if there are any recent relevant appeals I can cite? I've got it at work but not at home. The only fence appeals I have are frontage boundary treatment ones which are street scene rather than amenity issues.

I would also be worried about a Committee call in. Councillors could easily come down on the side of your neighbour.

Jins · 07/01/2012 14:29

I've had a quick look but there's nothing directly comparable at the moment. They are all either frontage boundaries or special landscape areas or associated with unauthorised enclosures.

Everyone's going out in a while so I'll have a quiet look later

ClownStatue · 07/01/2012 14:32

Blimey, your kids are gorgeous!

Good luck with the fence thing, it must be miserable being in a constant battle with your neighbours Sad Kill them dead by the power of MN! Wink

QuietOhSoQuiet · 07/01/2012 15:12

No advice whatsoever with regards your dilemna but....

You have the most beautiful children in the world :o

Pain in the rear neighbours or rather managing to move next to them is a speciality of mine so if you ever move and need help choosing which neighbours to go for with maximum raaaaahhhhh factor then please let me know,a completely free service as I just want to share my special talents Hmm

Jins · 07/01/2012 15:18

MissM I've failed miserably to find a relevant appeal :(

This is an interesting application committee report

Totally different scenario but I like the suggested reason for refusal if members are minded to refuse against officer recommendation..

The proposed development, arising from its scale and design, would result in an excessive and unsympathetic addition that has a detrimental impact on the character and appearance of the surrounding street scene and the residential amenity of the surrounding neighbouring properties. As such the proposal is contrary to Policies AW5 and AW6 of the Rhondda Cynon Taf Local Development Plan

I've done a Streetview site inspection of MrsD's neighbour as well and I do have some concerns about a committee decision, mainly because there's a huge impact on the neighbouring property but not as much on others or the street scene in general. It does sound like the planning officer is on side so that's the way to go, tempting though it would be to have a busload of councillors turn up to see the 'bungalow' in occupation

MissMarjoribanks · 07/01/2012 21:11

I'm drafting a letter now.

Jins - that committee report is interesting in more ways than one. Why didn't they just recommend the thing for refusal in the first place!! Shock Hmm

OhDoAdmitMrsDeVere · 07/01/2012 21:15

I cant tell you how impressed I am.

Really, its like some sort of Star Chamber for planning people in here.

OP posts:
RandomMess · 07/01/2012 21:24

I haven't dared ask how things have been since you stopped updating the original threads.

Wonder how it coped with the storm Smile

MissMarjoribanks · 07/01/2012 21:24

Finding some good stuff on your Council website - characterisation study, etc.

Sausagedog27 · 07/01/2012 21:31

The mn planning team- I love it! Sorry- this might be a silly question as I'm dipping in and out of the thread, but have you contacted your local councillor- the way it usually works is they can kick up a fuss internally on your behalf- things tended to get much higher quicker this way where I used to work as management wanted to get them off their backs? Might be good to invite them around and express all your concerns, ie not just the fence. Sorry if this has already been mentioned!

olgaga · 07/01/2012 21:42

If you're really stuck with this building, and the fence (which frankly given the eyesore it hides, I think I'd be grateful for) why not get a couple of inexpensive fence panels on your side to block their light? Or a couple of trellis panels with a fast growing clematis/wisteria? You could plant a eucalyptus down there too - fast growing, and which will probably interfere with the foundations of their eyesore? Or maybe a couple of fast-growing leylandii? That'll learn'em.

Your kids are luvly x.

MissMarjoribanks · 07/01/2012 22:28

Almost there! Might not finish tonight if I fall asleep but I have most of a letter done now.

Sausage - we have decided involving councillors might be a risk as they could equally be lobbied by the neighbour and end up on their side.

MissMarjoribanks · 07/01/2012 22:32

I tell you what though, I wish our Council had the resources to do some of the urban design stuff yours is doing. Its fantastic.

Jins · 07/01/2012 22:33

Recently I have found that councillors avoid taking up a case because they are concerned about predetermination issues even though it has now been clarified very well.

It's a great report isn't it MissM? I'd have thought it was a straight refusal Confused

MissMarjoribanks · 07/01/2012 23:22

Here you are Mrs DV. There is also a Supplementary Planning Document on residential alterations but it only deals with extensions and front boundary walls so I haven't mentioned it.

Dear Mr/Mrs Case Officer,

Re: Planning application ref. xxxx at [your neighbour's address]

I am writing to object in the strongest possible terms to the planning application for the erection of a 2.3m fence at [your neighbour's address]. The fence has already been erected and consequently this is a retrospective application.

I believe the proposal to be contrary to your adopted and emerging development plan policies. I note that the adopted Unitary Development Plan for [your Council] has policies which are intended to protect neighbouring properties from the adverse impact of householder developments. In particular, Policy BHE3 states: 'The Council will seek to ensure that proposals do not harm the local environment or the amenity of neighbouring occupiers. Permission will be granted for development if it...provides a satisfactory level of sunlight, daylight, privacy and outlook for occupiers of existing and adjoining properties'.

I also note that the Development Management policies in your emerging Local Development Framework have been consulted on. Policy DM4 reiterates the requirement to not adversely impact on the outlook, sunlight or daylight enjoyed by neighbouring properties.

As the fence is already in situ it is possible for me to establish the precise impact it has on my property. This is, without doubt, an adverse impact.

Firstly, it is oppressive. When I stand in the garden it is clearly taller than it needs to be in order to ensure a suitable level of privacy. It is overbearing, as it extends the full length of my garden, and is almost a metre above my head height. There is no relief from it. Wherever I look along that boundary, it is there. It also reduces my outlook from the garden. Although I do not wish to overlook neighbours' gardens, the fence reduces the general perception of spacious, suburban back gardens surrounding me, which I previously enjoyed. The skyline has been raised and I feel more enclosed.

Secondly, it reduces the amount of daylight and sunlight I enjoy. The fence is on the south western boundary of my property. This is also the direction from which I receive the most sun as not only does the sun come from that direction in the early afternoon, but also it is the greatest distance from other houses which might overshadow my property. My garden is of a reasonable size, but it is narrow. As such, the additional height to the fencing has a proportionately greater impact than on a wider plot. It overshadows my plants which need sunlight to grow. As the fence extends the length of the garden I have nowhere to move them to where they might get the sunlight they need. My plants are integral to the enjoyment of my garden.

I appreciate that the fall back position is the erection of a 2.0m fence, as permitted development under Schedule 2, Part 2 of the Town and Country Planning (General Permitted Development) Order 1995. Nevertheless, it is clear to me that it is the additional 300mm above the permitted development limit which leads to the adverse impact outlined above.

There is a reason that the long standing permitted development rights for fences are 2.0m; because this is considered to be a sufficient height to maintain privacy whilst not impinging on neighbours' amenity. I understand that 2.0m is not a limit of acceptability and that fences above this height simply require planning permission. It is not an indication that planning permission will be refused. However, the rationale behind the requirement for planning permission is that the impact of the proposal can be properly considered. Given the points I have made above I consider that the fence has an adverse impact and therefore should not be granted planning permission.

The precedent this development will set is also of concern. If my neighbour is able to construct a 2.3m fence, then I should also be able to. So should the neighbour on the other side, and so on. As a consequence, the whole street would suffer from a loss of amenity as I have. This cannot be acceptable.

The 2.3m fence has an adverse impact on my amenity. Consequently, in light of your adopted development plan policies which are intended to protect the amenity of neighbouring properties from the adverse impacts of development, the application should be refused.

I thank you for your attention in this matter.

Yours sincerely,

Mrs DeVere

MaryZed · 07/01/2012 23:29

Oh, Well done MissMarjori.

I just love the fact that whatever you want to do on Mumsnet, there is someone who will take the time and trouble to help.

So Thanks to all the planners Smile.

Jins · 07/01/2012 23:37

Bravo MissM!!!!!! Grin

Can I suggest holding back on sending the letter until we've had a chance to see the supporting information. We all know what a fence looks like but I'm interested to see if there's any supporting information put forward.

I'm going to try to see if I can work scale into your letter. Scale is really important in a residential environment.

needanewname · 07/01/2012 23:43

I'm so sorry to hear that you are still having to deal with your shit fukcing neighbours Mrs DV, I can;t believe twhat they have got away with.

Nothing to add other than support thoughI'm afraid

RoxyRobin · 08/01/2012 00:06

Those gits didn't half give you some grief last year - let's hope you can put a spoke in their wheel now.

Isn't MissM great? Like a benevolent genie she pops out of her bottle to dispense expert advice whenever you need her!

OhDoAdmitMrsDeVere · 08/01/2012 09:33

That is FAB. Thank you so much. It is incredible.
I am quite a good letter writer but I could never have done anything like that!

I will C&P it now but will wait to see if Jins has anything to add.

I am so touched by your help.

Thank you.

OP posts: