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AIBU?

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Original poster

to loathe 'Santa'?

188 replies

Kitchentiles · 14/12/2011 20:25

'Santa Claus' is an Americanism isn't it? He was always 'Father Christmas' to me and this seems to be dying out.

Yeah, I know, I need bigger things to worry about.

OP posts:
AitchTwoOHoHoHo · 15/12/2011 15:50

re the 6th, it's pretty hard to be joined onto england and ruled by it and not be affected by their holidays, i imagine. so the 25th would have got pegged to something or other.

wildstrawberryplace · 15/12/2011 15:52

Aha just had an email. Apparently the word(s) Santa Claus came to England and Scotland from America at 1870 at the earliest and from New York dutch english first appearance circa 1800 . According to from someone with access to an online etymology library thingy, in one of the top philology depts in Europe.

Katiepoes · 15/12/2011 15:52

What is it with some of you people? Phrases not used in middle england are 'americanisms' or 'common'. Hard to believe you once ran an empire.

If you refer to Father Christmas in Dublin you'd get laughed at. It's Santa or Santy here as ponited out and ignored by the What's so terrible about 'americanisms' anyway? Do none of you superipr english types watch Hollywood films? Laugh at The Simpsons? Vist Disneyland? Wear jeans?

AitchTwoOHoHoHo · 15/12/2011 15:53

when did christmas start being celebrated in ireland, katie? was it always done?

Katiepoes · 15/12/2011 15:54

Aagh words missing, 'by the' should not be there pah.

Stupid phone. It's Korean though so can't blame the Americans for that one.

Katiepoes · 15/12/2011 15:55

There's always been a festiavl of some sort this time of year. Presents too, I suppose they came from an elk or a wolf or somesuch though. Probably they complained about Vikingisms.

AitchTwoOHoHoHo · 15/12/2011 15:56

can you ask him how and why and what santa was referred to as before 1870, wildstrawberry? and ask him what other words came over around then as well, so the little englanders can strike them out of their lexicon? Grin

kellibabylove · 15/12/2011 16:01

It was always father Christmas when I was growing up too. Dd1 has started coming home from school (nursery) saying 'santa' I don't like it either.

AitchTwoOHoHoHo · 15/12/2011 16:03

is she being taught by irish, scottish, american or common people? Wink

wildstrawberryplace · 15/12/2011 16:12

I suppose the only thing is that he really knows about what was written not necessarily spoken - so all his stuff will be from historical texts of the time - letters, newspapers, articles, books etc.

He's sent me loads of stuff now!

He says that although the custom of hanging up stockings was already prevalent in northern england and Scotland he can find no "traditional" name for the gift giver! Naming appears in Britain, Scotland and Ireland as "Santa, Santa Claus and Santiclaus" only in the latter half of the 19th century. So no leads there.

I take it you believe that people in Scotland were calling the gift giver Santa before this? There's no hard evidence that is immediately apparent. But like I said, it would have to have appeared written down somewhere.

AitchTwoOHoHoHo · 15/12/2011 16:16

no, like i said i have no idea. i totally presume your pal is right. i mentioned our links with the netherlands further down because people were happy to go along with the 'returning emigrant' line, which made no sense whatsoever to me, especially given scotland's links with holland.

i do find it weird that ireland and scotland have taken santa (as opposed to santa claus) up with such gusto, though, while the englanders resisted. surely santa must have pushed out a local term, it seems crazy that none would have existed in scots.

AitchTwoOHoHoHo · 15/12/2011 16:18

and actually, my main thing is, as wigglybeezer said further down, that i thoroughly object to the snobbery involved in the 'ghastly americanism' thing. so much of american language is in shakespeare, it just didn't make the crossing back.

ReduceRecycleRegift · 15/12/2011 16:22

Some people from my childhood who only ever said santie or santa or santa clause, have now adopted father christmas along with their fake posh accent Grin

I like both

what's with the venom with anything that might happen in america too, whatever we "got from them" they probably got from us and ran with it years ago so hay ho... ho ho ho...

wildstrawberryplace · 15/12/2011 16:26

I dunno maybe it's that regional thing again - haven't some people in England said they always said Santa? Us northerners have lots more words from Norse and Danish etc (same as Scotland, for similar reasons) than the south. I wonder if it could be related to that. But heck I reckon we'll never know for sure, language changes constantly doesn't it? Maybe in a hundred years we'll be calling him something completely different. Santabot or something.

noblegiraffe · 15/12/2011 16:27

My mum's Irish, I grew up with Santa/Santie and my DH is horrified and insisting that I only use Father Christmas with our DS. I think he thinks it is a class thing. Now I know it's an Irish thing I'll tell him to get stuffed.

Father Christmas sounds stupid and formal and too much of a mouthful.

wildstrawberryplace · 15/12/2011 16:31

YY to "ghastly americanism" bullshit. Had an ex whose parents went on and on about cranberry sauce being a ghastly americanism. I took great pleasure in asking them why they were having turkey then if they disliked american stuff so much.

usualsuspect · 15/12/2011 16:32

I live in the Midlands and know nobody who says Father Christmas

QueenMaeve · 15/12/2011 16:34

Aitch I think the Irish and the Scots took to it with such gusto as they were generally more open to things which involved fun, celebration, feasting etc than the straight laced victorians

AitchTwoOHoHoHo · 15/12/2011 16:43

hahahah well OBVIOUSLY.

actually am also wondering if it might be that gaidhlig and irish were really taking a hammering back then? hence the reason why i am curious about teh scots.

roastparsnipsandbrusselsprouts · 15/12/2011 17:14

In Scotland Hogmanay was the bigger party than Christmas until very very recently. Let's face it, we Scots know how to have a party!!

Keishara · 15/12/2011 17:38

Just putting my two cents in...

I always thought of "Santa" as a horrible americanism and have always called him "Father Christmas", HOWEVER I have been persuaded to change for the simple reason that Santa is more secular. If you use Santa he is just a nice man who comes around at the end of September to give all the good children presents, and doesn't need to be associated with Christmas which is, at its heart, a religious festival. Little harder to believe in Father Christmas if you don't do Christmas, while Santa can be for anyone.

whackamole · 15/12/2011 17:39

Always Father Christmas for me too.

noblegiraffe · 15/12/2011 18:06

"Santa is more secular"

It's short for Saint Nicholas!

TandB · 15/12/2011 18:12

Santa Claus for me - growing up in the 70s and 80s in the north-east.

Definitely not an americanism/modernism.

ReduceRecycleRegift · 15/12/2011 18:26

Keishara that makes no sense, santa = saint!