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AIBU?

Share your dilemmas and get honest opinions from other Mumsnetters.

to loathe 'Santa'?

188 replies

Kitchentiles · 14/12/2011 20:25

'Santa Claus' is an Americanism isn't it? He was always 'Father Christmas' to me and this seems to be dying out.

Yeah, I know, I need bigger things to worry about.

OP posts:
santastooearlymustdache · 14/12/2011 21:48

i had no idea this was such a moot point!
you live and learn...Xmas Grin

usualsuspect · 14/12/2011 21:49

Only on MN ,santa

AitchTwoOHoHoHo · 14/12/2011 21:50

has the question 'why santa?' not been answered repeatedly throughout the thread? seriously? only some english people say father christmas, get over it.

SantasLittleEmmaRoyd · 14/12/2011 21:57

I say both. It was Father Christmas when I was growing up but DD has leart 'When Santa got stuck up the chimney' for her little show at nursery and I'm not going to correct her.

Fo0ffysFestiveShmooffery · 14/12/2011 22:13

Folk do get worked up about the oddest things.

Quite simply, Were you naughty? Were you nice? Whatever you call the big guy will he be coming to YOUR house? If you're all angry and stabby and grrrrr you'll get nothing. He will pass your arse by.

trulyscrumptious43 · 14/12/2011 22:18

YES! At last. Thank you for posting this.
I hate the term and only heard it about 10 years ago. It's an Americanism, which I loathe.
-In the last decade have also spent time explaining my daughter that she does not go to High School, when buy reduced items from the shops they are In The Sale, not On Sale, and the food parcel I just sent her at Uni was not a Care Package!!

4c4good · 14/12/2011 22:19

Oh I hate it too - But both SC and FC.
See my thread - Bah Humbug Xmas Grin

AitchTwoOHoHoHo · 14/12/2011 22:20

IT ISN'T A FUCKING AMERICANISM.

wildstrawberryplace · 14/12/2011 22:24

Surely Father Christmas is linked to old pagan figures? Part of the pagan/christian crossovers. Different origin to Santa Claus.

redlac · 14/12/2011 22:25

We use High School in Scotland too. They are not americanisms just because you don't say it in England

wildstrawberryplace · 14/12/2011 22:25

Actually I think it is an Americanism, just one that's been around for a long, long time.

FredFredGeorge · 14/12/2011 22:26

AitchTwoOhoHoHo Sure it is, Father Christmas as an idea predates Santa Claus usage, but the English one didn't give gifts, so that's very much a Sinterklass / Santa Claus. So your only other explanation is where all the Dutch guys came from to intoduct it to England. It's an americanism - an old one, but if you think americanism means anything then surely that shouldn't matter?

wildstrawberryplace · 14/12/2011 22:28

According to dictionary.com santa (or santa claus) is americanism dating back to the 18th century and comes from Dutch americans use of Sinterklaas

AitchTwoOHoHoHo · 14/12/2011 22:28

so if you're right - what are the connections between dutch us citizens and the irish and scots who never left home?

troisgarcons · 14/12/2011 22:30

Santa Claus is an anglicisation of Sinterklasss - Dutch - which every good historian will know became comman usage with William and Mary.

Father Christmas is Victorian image.

wildstrawberryplace · 14/12/2011 22:30

it's a loan word, aitch

redlac · 14/12/2011 22:30

Did the dutch only go to America then? Perhaps there was a rubbish sailor who ended up in Scotland?

AitchTwoOHoHoHo · 14/12/2011 22:32

oh i freely agree it's a dutchism... we jocks pretty much had our court in the netherlands for a while. lots of similarities in the languages.

FredFredGeorge · 14/12/2011 22:32

AitchTwoOhoHoHo Words have crossed from America for hundreds of years, it's not a new thing, and they became more popular in certain parts (I actually suspect it was Dickens popularity in Victorian England that encouraged Father Christmas) The gift giving is very much a Santa Claus activity not a Father Christmas activity, and Santa Claus is from Sinterklass (and we should've eaten all out chocolate letters and opened our presents by now!)

wildstrawberryplace · 14/12/2011 22:33

I guess if the tradition of Father Christmas the pagan/christian crossover figure wasn't there in Scottish/Irish tradition, there was just a more natural affinity with santa, which people would have been exposed to through movies and songs from the early 20th century? Or returning home scots/irish immigrants from US brought it back with them?

roastparsnipsandbrusselsprouts · 14/12/2011 22:34

Many spellings and a lot of vocabulary that is considered American was originally British. British settlers in America took their language with them. Language in Britain changed but the original terms continued to be used in America. Sometimes it is us who have changed things, not the Americans.

I doubt it is the case here but maybe we shouldn't make such an issue of it although I refuse to talk about movies Xmas Grin

AitchTwoOHoHoHo · 14/12/2011 22:34

here ya go. muuuch more likely that we have santa direct from the netherlands.

"It's said that the first people from the Low Countries to settle in Scotland came in the wake of Mathilda's marriage to the Scottish king, David I, during the Dark Ages. Craftsmen and tradesmen followed courtiers and in later centuries a brisk trade grew up between our two nations: Scotland's primary goods (wool, hides, salmon and then coal) in exchange for the luxuries obtainable in the Netherlands, one of the major hubs of European trade.

By 1600, trading colonies had grown up on either side of the well-travelled shipping routes: the Dutch settling along the eastern seaboard of Scotland; the Scots congregating first in Campvere ? where they were allowed to land their goods duty free and run their own affairs ? and then Rotterdam, where Scottish and Dutch Calvinism coexisted comfortably. Besides the thousands of local descendants with Scots ancestry, both ports still show signs of these early alliances. Now a museum, 'The Scots House' in Vere was the only place outside Scotland where Scots Law was practised. In Rotterdam, meanwhile, the doors of The Scots International Church have remained wide open ever since 1643.

When they weren't trading with each other, the Scots and Dutch were taking up arms together against a common enemy ? whoever that might be. Over 300 years ago, Scots mercenaries joined William of Orange in an invasion of Great Britain. 60 years ago, thousands of Scots were involved in the liberation of Holland. And only this June, the Dutch Navy were exercising in Scottish waters during NATO manoeuvres.

Exchange of ideas
The two countries traded in ideas as well as goods during these formative years. Scottish students in search of a professional education in Law or Medicine made a beeline for Leiden near Rotterdam. Among the most noteworthy was Sir Robert Sibbald, the first Professor of Physics at Edinburgh University. Returning from Leiden, he went on to create Edinburgh's Botanical Garden, based on a Dutch model. Years later, Edinburgh's world famous Medical Faculty was founded and staffed exclusively by Leiden graduates. "Even Edinburgh's Royal Infirmary was based on a Leiden hospital and, in the world of finance, The Bank of Scotland followed the eminent example set by The Bank of Amsterdam.

The trade in ideas was two-way. Within the realm of philosophy, in particular, Scots made a major contribution. William MacDowell helped to found the University of Groningen in 1614, and no fewer than five Scots taught the subject at Leiden during the seventeenth century. It's a transfer of knowledge that has continued to this day."

redlac · 14/12/2011 22:35

Well googled Aitch ;)

FredFredGeorge · 14/12/2011 22:36

troisgarcons Father Christmas predates Victorian Christmas's by a long way

AitchTwoOHoHoHo · 14/12/2011 22:38

oh sure, redlac, my mother reads these historical jock novels set in Rotterdam and is always banging on about the language/culture similarities so i knew i'd find something. Grin