to loathe 'Santa'?

[Kitchentiles]

'Santa Claus' is an Americanism isn't it? He was always 'Father Christmas' to me and this seems to be dying out.

Yeah, I know, I need bigger things to worry about.

I think American High schools are more likely named after scottish high schools than the other way round; The High School of Glasgow, The High School of Dundee, The High School of Stirling (now Stirling high School) all called high school since the early middle ages, so can we knock that one on the head please (sometimes i hate being pedantic but i can't seem to stop myself ).

I don't particularly like Santa BTW but I do deny it being a recent americanism.

Always been Santa for me (Irish).

Been thinking about this and I think I have to say OP YABU because whatever you call him we're talking about the same American symbol really...OK so Father Christmas might be more English with pagan/christian crossover background and Santa might be used by the Scots and Irish because they don't have the tradition of the figure of the old man of Christmas or whatever.

I don't know, nothing to do with English parochialism here (my family are Irish anyway) but I still think all the evidence points to S word coming to us from America rather than direct from the Dutch - I asked my philologist friend and that's what he told me, even in the case of Scotland (who correct me if I'm wrong because I could easily be , historically never went in for big Christmas festivities due to the influence of the Kirk who at its dour strictest, viewed Christmas as an idolatrous celebration not to be observed - hence why the Scots go in Hogmanay in a big way, they could let rip then instead).

Google reveals that "The transformation of Saint Nicholas to Santa Claus happened largely in America ? with inspiration from the Dutch. In the early days of Dutch New York, Sinterklaas became known among the English-speaking as "Santa Claus" (or "Saint Nick"). In 1809 Washington Irving, a member of the New York Historical Society (which promoted a Dutch Saint Nicholas as its patron saint), created a tale of a chubby, pipe-smoking little Saint Nicholas who road a magic horse through the air visiting all houses in New York. The elfish figure was small enough to climb down chimneys with gifts for the good children and switches for the bad ones.

The 1823 poem "The Night Before Christmas" ("A Visit from Saint Nicholas", reputedly by Clement Moore) replaced the horse with a sleigh drawn by eight flying reindeer. (Moore may have been inspired by the Finnish legend of Old Man Winter, who drove reindeer down from the mountain, bringing the snow.) Following Irving's example, Moore's St. Nick was more an elf than a bishop. Unlike the earlier St. Nicks, this one brought no birch switches, only presents. And it was Moore who established that St. Nick brings presents on the night before Christmas rather than on Saint Nicholas Day or any other time."

So I think at the end of the day who cares, call it what you like and is traditional from your region (bearing in mind that Christmas as we tend to celebrate it now borrows heavily from America anyway - turkey anyone? cranberries?) I tend to say Father Christmas but actually we mix it up interchangeably with Santa, Santa Claus etc.

Getting so riled about it really just isn't in the spirit of Christmas

wiggly it's not a recent americanism that's true. But it's certainly an americanism going waaaaaaaaaaaaaay back. FC/Santa as we know him now is basically "an americanism".

He's always been called Santa Claus here in NI, nobody here would say Father Christmas, that seems to be an English thing. It was probably Irish immigrants that took the term "Santa" to America in the first place. abit like people complaining that Halloween is an American invention when it originates in Ireland.

who was it that the kirk disapproved of us idolising? did the guy have a name at all?

Good post Wildstrawberryplace, i don't really mind what people call Santa/FC I only object to the hint of snobbishness that usually goes along with these posts and the lack of awareness of the variety of traditions in the British isles (and ireland) often displayed by people.

precisely, wiggly, that's exactly it. and the people who do these 'hallowe'en/santa/high school is a ghastly americanism' threads never come back and say 'ooops, sorry, i rather showed myself up to be a bit ignorant there, didn't i?' funny that.

sure he did Aitch - Bodach na Nollaig, wasn't it?

Interesting that in both Scots Gaelic and Gaelic the "Daidi na Nollaig" and "Bodach na Nollaig" are "Father Christmas" and not Santa Claus? So are there big differences in the Scottish / Irish celebrations depending on the language spoken?

Second that Christmas traditionally wasn't a big deal in Scotland until very recently. My parents in their 60's both say it was routine to work to at least lunch time on xmas day when they started work. You finished early and went home to have xmas dinner. And it was seen much more as a special day for kids rather than the family as a whole.

And even when I was young - I am 47 - I remember public transport ran on a Sunday service and newspapers were still produced for xmas day.

bodach is old man, not father.

seriously, though, he must have had a name in scots. what would that have been? i've not got a clue about scots.

i think btw that the idea of christmas not being a big deal until recently is a bit of a red herring. we didn't do the dickensian 'let's roast a goose' thing but it was always celebrated as a childrens' festival with tangerines and sixpences in stockings. so, more like the european Saint Nicholas days than Christmas as we know it now. (hence, possibly, our use of Santa?)

According to numerous scottish history sites the Scots gaelic term for the scots gaelic figure was Bodach na Nollaig.

it definitely is, wildstrawberry, that's what he's still called in gaidhlig. it means the old man of christmas. but scots and gaidhlig are two very different languages.

but aitch that's the same traditions as south of the border - an orange and a sixpence.

yes, it is. am sorry but i don't see your point.

"old man christmas" and "father christmas" are the same thing in English traditions too, and distinct from Santa Claus until the late 19th/20th century when the American ideas merged in.

What surprises me most here is that people are horrified at the idea that something might be an american invention - as if it's a bad thing.

it's the same as across europe as well. some sweeties, fruit (dried or otherwise) and money, left either in boots or socks, like the st nicholas legend has it.

that's the whole premise of the thread, fred, that americanisms are bad.

i'm just asking why ireland and scotland would have taken up that 'americanism' so wholeheartedly, despite its actual roots in european tradition, saint nicholas, sinterklaas etc, when in fact we had plenty of links with europe and followed their tradition more than we did the English Dickensian one.

it makes less sense for it to have travelled all the way to america and come back via returning emigrants who would have been exposed to dutch people (not a huge constituency) than for it to have come from the netherlands in the first place.

i am obviously talking about the name rather than the jolly coca cola guy, who obviously comes from america.

Yes, the orange/stocking/sixpence is european, of course it is - so much is obvious. But there is no evidence (at least on this thread so far) that scots traditions for santa are MORE european than english ones.

AitchTwoOHoHoHo But for it to come from the netherlands direct, it would be rather strange to adopt it in exactly the American was (ie corrupt Sinterklass to Santa Claus the same, move the date the same - to a date not much celebrated in Scotland in even modern times, to lose Piet and Spanish connections the same as the American tradition) If it was seperate evolution, it's way too much of a coincidence to adopt it all the same.

Father Christmas for us. Santa just seems so American !

But if that was the case aitch, there would surely be more of big deal about 6th December?

I agree, not likely to have travelled back via returning emigrants exposed to Dutch. More likely to have come into common usage in the late 19th century once the Dutch-american fusing had already taken place and to have just been

But as we speak my philologist friend is researching it for you, and if he comes up trumps I will let you know.

oh yes, that's true, although as it happens we tend to call him santa more than santa claus so it's not an exact match to the american name. god knows i'm not saying there is no american influence at play, the entire globe has been influenced by america in the last 200 years.

we also never adopted befana or any of the other european elements peculiar to particular countries, so i'm not sure that the lack of black piet is relevant. when i was growing up it was very much scottish fairies who would take your presents away, but that may just have owed itself to a fashion for george macdonald stories at the time.