To really believe algebra is a waste of time...

[Feminine]

unless you are intending to go in to a math/science driven career?

Not radical I know but really, its a waste of time isn't it?

I think teens would be better off concentrating on math that actually helps when they leave school...I have a teen myself and teen siblings -I hear this opinion regularly.Many of the brightest students struggle with it, surely they could do something else? something more practical perhaps?

The jobs I have heard it is used in, is quite silly.

If I am ignorant, and we would would all be much better off if we were all better at it , then I (in advance) apologize. :)

I love algebra. I'm not a maths teacher or in a science based career, but algebra was one of the most satisfying and enjoyable aspects of maths when I was in school.

YABVU.

sorry have to disagree with you I hated maths but without fail every day I use some of the basic formulas of algebra - a+b=c. Working out whether discounts are worth it in shops, creating quotes for clients, measuring out babies milk ration to water, I work in marketing so not a typical 'maths' related field but I coudn't do with out it. I was lucky though and went to high school in the states and did literally two full years of algebra. Now if you said geometry, pythagoras and all that crud then I would agree with you but I bet you use Algebra every day.

you also mention things that help when they leave school - you need algebra to make sense of the interest rates on mortgages, credit cards, etc as well

This is the most unreasonable post I have ever read on mumsnet. You may just as well suggest doing away with eating, drinking and sex.

There is awesome beauty in algebra. It can be breathtaking. It can be immensely enjoyable to study for its own sake. And it has thousands of applications.

It is at the bedrock of human understanding of the world. It is the foundation for so much fantastic mathematics and science. And you can use it to solve tricky su doku puzzles. What's not to like.

So, suppose you are cooking a Chinese Ready Meal and it has two sorts of starter - starter one takes 15 minutes and starter two takes 10.

Then you have three main courses - main one takes twenty minutes and mains two and three take 25 minutes.

You want to allow 10 minutes to eat the starters.

Well, if s = the time you are going to eat the starters then:

starter1 goes in over at s - 15
starter2 goes in over at s - 10

You want the mains to be ready at m, where m = s + 10, therefore

main1 goes in oven at m - 20 which is the same as s - 10

main2 goes in oven at s - 15
main3 goes in oven at s - 15

So it is really simple now:

s - 15: starter1, main2 and main 3 all go in the oven
s - 10: starter2 and main 1 go in oven
s: Eat starters
s+10: Eat Mains

Decide when s is (or wait until the oven is at temperature and derive s from that) and it is all sorted!

Course if the dishes do not all want the same oven temperature then you are stuffed.

Good Morning!

Thanks all.

I don't advocate removing it from the curriculum, I didn't say that anywhere.

I suggested that for those that struggle, perhaps they could learn something else.

Maybe its possible that as I am basing it on what they are learning here?

Its 30 algebraic questions every night ...

They don't seem to do fractions anymore, no measuring ,no venn diagrams etc...with amount of complaints I hear , it just made me wonder.

The examples of how algebra is used has been interesting ...I would have just called those examples basic math.

cheryl he is not just writing web pages ...my SIL (who has a computer science degree and goodness knows what else) works with him.

At her last job she was a financial corporate vice president ...she told us that even now he could work for her/her company,

This is not a look at my son brag ,so please no harsh comments on that level :)

Just wanted to reiterate that he is able to handle computers to a pretty good level while claiming he can't do algebra ?

I am very grateful for all the explanations ...truly :) I will have to pry more in to what my son is up to

I still dont get algebra.
It was all going so well. Long division, multiplication.
And then one day the teacher said something like "if a equals b what does c mean?", and my world crumbled.

For the mathsy people on here, imagine the English teacher when you were ten suddenly breaking out the Chaucer. You would be like WTF? Thats not English!

I don't agree with the OP, but I still wish I understood about algebra.

mummytime I am pretty sure you each owe £6 for the taxi, and I have no problem working out stuff like that in my head, but I don't get why it's algebra!?

OP, if he is that good at what he is doing programming wise, then he's probably already applying the principles of algebra without even knowing it then. Raise that point to him, and maybe it'll click.

Assigning a couple of variables to numerical values and then manipulating them to produce a result is GCSE algebra. And by the sounds of it he's already doing that comfortably.

I also find it strange that someone can be good at programming yet be unable to understand even basic algebra. In fact I'd wonder if there was something very wrong wtih the way the algebra was being taught at his school, it just doesn't sound right to me at all.

Algebra is basically just assigning names/symbols to values and manipulating them. You can't even code a simple loop without doing that .

Maybe you could give an example of the kind of 'algebraic question' that he's struggling with. Obviously don't if you'd rather not go into it, I'm just curious!

Algebra is brilliant! Even as a maths dunce at school I enjoyed algebra.

Maybe the OPs DS just has a poor teacher who is confuddling him, and making them do too much of the same thing. I inferred she's in the US - maybe the UK maths curriculum has a better balance ... my DD certainly does fractions etc

OP, how about you give us a sample of the questions (not all 30 - an easy and hard example) and remind us of your DS's age and then we might find if we've been a bit at cross purposes because most of us are employing a British POV of the subject.

I did absolutely love algebra at school too. It was the 'lightbulb' moment for me, when maths changed from boring routine 'churning' out answers, into learning a language for describing the world in the most elegant concise accurate way and finding answers to questions that would otherwise be impossible.

Combine that with computing skills, and you feel like there's nothing you can't do .

Its not that you don't understand algebra, its that you don't think you understand algebra.

And the idea of replacing it with such suggested things as "money management" is divisive and insulting. Are you going to put them into groups, the "too thick to wotk out much more than what change you'll get from your fags and the Sun" vs "you might be smart enough for a proper job where you might need some real maths"?

cheryl and Ephiny I know I know...it is weird. :)

I find it odd ...when he decodes things (to me) it looks very similar.

As I said earlier, all the students (even the capable ones ) say the teacher is lazy and won't help.

I asked her to write (with her red pen) just where he is going wrong ...she just refers him back to the book!

I have told him that it makes no sense to claim you can't do it , if you are programing, ...but that is where we are at

Actually I just remembered I did raise this question with my SIL ...she said something about the way he learns it/applies it?

Thanks though ...this thread has unintentionally helped me realize we really need to get back to the UK ...fast!

Oh, and Ephiny if I can get my hands on his book...I'll post an example:)

grimma yes, the UK does have a much better balance.

I can see that just by looking at the GCSE bite-size :)

The school he attends here is very, very old fashioned and there is no governing body (of sorts) to insist anything is bought up-to date.

The 'computer class' here is just typing ...at least my DS can touch type at break neck speed I suppose

I really believe one's understanding of maths hinges on the teacher. In all my experiences with maths including my own school years and my dcs so far, they and I have struggled under poor teachers and thrived under good teachers.

The way maths is taught can change everything.

And I don't think that is true of every subject.

The way maths is taught can change everything.
Heck yes. I was fine all through school till university subsid. maths - the prof confuddled everyone except one Chinese student who I think already knew the areas we were being taught.

I have to say that teacher sounds awful!!!! No teacher should say if someone asks them to explain something, just look at the book, that isn't teaching. Teaching is the art of explaining things in lots of different ways until your student gets it.

YABU. Learning for its own sake is valuable in itself. If we just needed "skills" to earn money we might as well just be worker bees, with no interest in knowledge apart from what was directly necessary to keep us alive.

another I don't agree actually.

Boys (particularly) need to see a reason for why they are learning something.

Not everyone wants to learn for the sake of it.

There are many school leavers just floating around, hated learning "because they had to" switched off, and now are unemployable.

Well, in the case of algebra this thread has produced lots of 'whys'!

Think of a number

Add 5

Double it

Add 20

Halve it

Take away the number you first thought of.

You get 15, right?

With arithmetic you can show this is true for a given number. With algebra you can show you will get 15 for any number. A million? Minus a billion? Whatever, your answer will be 15.

Algebra is fun, and immensely useful.