to ask why the Sun and the Mail newspaper are so hated on here?

[missnamechange]

I have name changed for this as i am a regular MNer and i know i really ought to know this but i don't

i read the Sun every most days, i like the vacuous celeb gossip and their easy to understand way of writing (again - ) and the womens section, and the problem pages

what's so bad about it?

I like the voice and the telegraph myself thought I pin my colours to the mast

Bearing in mind that the Mail's readership is overwhelmingly female - it would be foolish to write a paper directed at men.

As it happens, despite being very partial to some home-weaved hummous served on a lightly toasted sandal, I prefer to form my own opinions. So while I do favour the Guardian/Independent/Observer, it is because those papers are aimed at a readership that prefers to think for themselves.

NeuromanticisedVisionsofXmas The Sun doesn't claim to be a quality paper, it positions itself firmly as a popular one. However, it is better written (more concise and clear), has more news, and has better headlines and layouts (i.e. ones which draw you into the page and therefore the stories) than most papers which do position themselves as quality. Its politics are sometimes dodgy, but then so are all papers - and often dodgy is used as shorthand for "I don't agree with that".

I don't agree with page 3, far from it, and I do find some of the crass homophobia horrible, and yes, Hillsborough was an appalling lapse of judgement. But despite this, I do think The Sun is overall a good paper.

So what if it is overwhelmingly female? Its still rampantly misogynistic in the main. The Mail hates women. But not as much as it hates gays...anyone remember the Mail front page headline "abortion hopes after gay genes finding"?

The Sun better written? Now I know you're bonkers! My seven year old could write a better quality article than the Sun.

The Sun is an overall piece of shit rag that isn't worth wiping your arse on.

Honest to god, I don't see how anyone who completed primary school can fail to see why people think the Sun is stupid. It's written for a reading age of 7 (I have friends who failed GCSEs who think the Sun is too stupid for them, so it's hardly an intellectual perspective). It is extremely racist. I can almost see how people can think the DM is a newspaper, even though I think it's disgusting and distasteful to bash people on benefits as they do by picking a tiny minority of cases and publishing outright lies, but clearly that is their political agenda and some people do think it's valid- but the Sun isn't even coherent; it's the kind of newspaper you'd expect a drunk footie yob to publish while actually unconscious. Also I don't see how a 17 year old's tits are news- most 17 year old girls have tits, I don't need to see them in a newspaper every fucking day.

Don't buy the Sun. The story of why people in Liverpool stopped buying it.

Oh, but I think the Gruaniad is too right wing, so maybe I don't count as a PROPAR MNER.

God, and that vile Daily Mail columnist Jan Moir's nasty article about Stephen Gately's death before he was even cold in his grave.

Wibbly- I stopped buying The Guardian when they supported the invasion of Iraq. That left me with just The Mirror, which is pretty much garbage. I just skim news from all over on the internet these days.

NeuromanticisedVisionsofXmas - it takes far more talent to, say, accurately explain the Eurozone crisis in language and assuming a context which a seven-year-old will understand than it does in language/context a well-read 25-year-old will. You're confusing the ability to use long words with the ability to report well. A good reporter has to understand the long words in the first place and then "translate" them, with meaning and nuance intact.

When I used to news edit reporters' copy, a piece littered with long words and jargon was a red flag that the reporter didn't actually understand what they were writing about.

NeuromanticisedVisionsofXmas - and also, I take issue with the idea that non-intellectual = stupid! There is a very, very large middle ground, which most of the country belongs to.

limited - some of the viewpoints in the Spec are breathtaking: genuinely, dazzingly bonkers. They recently did a two-page feature on abortion around which was filled with so many inaccuracies it was essentially a work of fiction. I dare say it's almost more embarrassing to read the Spec than the DM.

But I really do love the cartoons

that's "around the time of the Nadine Dorries amendment" not just "around"

Type too fact for me brain sometimes.

BOF - Jan Moir - brrr.

Maypole I voted tory, don't own a pair of sandals and am not middle class. My politics are broadly libertarian.

But I read the Guardian for the same reasons as Pandemoniaa

manicinsomniac Tue 06-Dec-11 13:53:32
But Jane, surely it is a totaly waste of time to read something you don't like?? If it's not your job why on earth would you bother?

Well that can vary I suppose depending on who you're talking to.

Perhaps some find it morbidly fascinating - not the content but the whole thing - the fact this shite is written in the first place. Some might be incredulous. Some might just find it interesting and an insight into what a proportion of the British public is subscribing to when they pay for it.

I don't know why you would bother, but just because you read it doesn't mean you like it or think it's valid.

and yes, I've read links on here out of interest or in fact sheer boredom. It doesn't mean I'd pay to purchase the drivel I've witnessed online. I wouldn't give a damn if the whole murdoch empire folded and no more red tops ever got printed, in fact I htink along with many others I'd be really pleased.

But reading it occasionally and with an air of disgust doesn't make me a supporter of it.

the vast majority of The Sun readership start from the back cover and work their way 7 pages in. My DH will bring back one from site and there will be finger markers on the back pages and none on the pages near the front

That's interesting redlac.

Also, with the amount of free porn on the web, does the Sun even need page 3 anymore? It's just embarrassing that a major British newspaper devotes one of its front pages to a girl with tits akimbo.

Nancy66 - shame the Mail's right of reply didn't extend to actually replying to me when I threatened to report them to the PCC for the a piece of breathtakingly blatent of anti islamic claptrap (note: I am not Muslim but DH and the DSs are). They focussed on the religion of a victim of domestic violence and her husband and wrongly linked the attack to the fact she had converted to islam. This was wrong because a) religion was irrelevant to the report - see 12 ii of the PCC code and b) she hadn't converted. Would they have mentioned the religion of the people involved if they had been CofE?

A couple of years earlier I had challenged the Times about an inaccurate report about immigrants from DH's country which was written in a way that implied many of them had links to terrorism. At least, in that case one of the editors got back to me and agreed it was a badly worded opening and that was not the intent of the article.

As for the Sun, the concept of page 3 sets my teeth on edge. I think the paper is misogynistic and racist. Papers can have a political / ideological slant but they do have a duty to be be fair and accurate.

In case any DM or Sun journos are reading can I remind you of the following:-

Para 1 of the PCC code

Accuracy

i) The Press must take care not to publish inaccurate, misleading or distorted information, including pictures.

ii) A significant inaccuracy, misleading statement or distortion once recognised must be corrected, promptly and with due prominence, and - where appropriate - an apology published. In cases involving the Commission, prominence should be agreed with the PCC in advance.

iii) The Press, whilst free to be partisan, must distinguish clearly between comment, conjecture and fact.

iv) A publication must report fairly and accurately the outcome of an action for defamation to which it has been a party, unless an agreed settlement states otherwise, or an agreed statement is published.

I read The Week - compiled from newspapers from all over the world. Gives a top level view of what's been going on and allows me to compare what's reported and how it's reported in different papers.