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AIBU?

Share your dilemmas and get honest opinions from other Mumsnetters.

to ask why the Sun and the Mail newspaper are so hated on here?

428 replies

missnamechange · 06/12/2011 11:18

I have name changed for this as i am a regular MNer and i know i really ought to know this Blush but i don't

i read the Sun every most days, i like the vacuous celeb gossip and their easy to understand way of writing (again - Blush ) and the womens section, and the problem pages

what's so bad about it?

OP posts:
manicinsomniac · 06/12/2011 13:44

afoggygrotto - not that I am consciously aware of, no. I have never bought a newspaper. I read the telegraph online if I have some free time, try to catch a BBC news broadcast at least once a week and otherwise exist on whatever news msn throws at me when I open my email page.

I can tell the difference between a tabloid and a broadsheet at first glance obviously. But I don't go beyond first glances.

MrsWifty · 06/12/2011 13:44

OP I think you've got your answer.

For what it's worth, I think they're both papers with failings (such as the ones mentioned many times here, page 3 in The Sun and sensationalist health and immigration reporting in The Mail). However, I also think they have many strengths too. The "patronising" "dumbed down" approach taken by The Sun is one - it is much more difficult to explain sometimes complex concepts in language understood by the majority, and I can't see why doing this is remotely patronising. The writing in both is often far superior to the news writing in the "quality" press - more concise and fewer literals. The subbing (headlines, layout, copy editing) is the best in Fleet Street.

I don't often agree with the politics in The Mail, but it's worth noting that they have taken brave moral stances - e.g. printing the front page accusing men of murdering Stephen Lawrence and challenging them to sue, and last year they were the paper at the forefront of investigating the tax cuts given to corporations.

Similarly, the idea that there's no news in The Sun is laughable. It has far more news pages than, say, The Guardian, and each page is crammed with far more stories. And that goes for hard news, not just celebrity twaddle, which even the holier-than-thou Independent runs.

Actually, I find the idea that people should just read the Guardian or the Independent and then they'd have the right idea of the world so much more patronising than anything The Sun or Mail allegedly does.

I also think it's unfair to judge a paper on articles it wrote 30 or more years ago.

(Disclaimer - I am a journalist, I've worked in local newspapers for the best part of a decade now, but I have never worked on The Sun, The Mail, or any national newspaper come to that.)

keSnowBi · 06/12/2011 13:45

limited yes I've noticed that too - is it just me or did that start around the time of the whole NOTW mess? Grin

manicinsomniac As to why I know the paper so well, I do read it. I have to. I'm supposed to read all of them in fact.

If I was left to my own devices I'd read G, ST and the Spectator, which I love for the brilliant cartoons. Highly schizophrenic politics right there. Sometimes I'll read the same story from two different sources and it'll take me a while to realise it's the same story Grin

mummymccar · 06/12/2011 13:46

manicinsomniac - not necessarily. I don't read the DM but know about the articles because I use Twitter a lot and read a lot of tweets by people ranting about particular articles.
A lot of people use caching to save the article and publish the image elsewhere on the net so that people can read it without giving the DM any traffic.

limitedperiodonly · 06/12/2011 13:47

afoggygrotto I find views such as yours more depressing than the startling news that some people have lower IQs than others.

Have you not been reading this thread? Some people have poor standards of English comprehension and do find broadsheets challenging. That doesn't mean they should be treated with contempt either by tabloid writers or the readers of broadsheets.

I agree with the first part of manicinsomniac's post. We'll agree to differ about the second.

Pandemoniaa · 06/12/2011 13:47

(Another disclaimer. I also work in the media but not on nationals)

It might seem unreasonable to quote editorial content from way back when but there is a context when the editorial line in question appears basically unchanged. The names/event may be different but the sentiments remain.

keSnowBi · 06/12/2011 13:47

nancy if that's the case that's great news.

NeuromanticisedVisionsofXmas · 06/12/2011 13:48

1989 is not more than 30 years ago Hmm, and they have written a great many racist, homophobic, xenophobic, anti-everyone, and often downright total fabrication stories since then. Freddie Starr ate my hamster anyone? Elton John and rent boys, Eastbenders (yuppie poofs apparently, nice)...and lets not forget the famous one from the Sun "Straight Sex can't give you AIDS; FACT"

Hmm
GColdtimer · 06/12/2011 13:49

I read neither for pleasure but do look look through both papers to find releavant journalists for work (am a publicist) and so I do know a few people who work on both papers. Have to say they all seem like decent people (mind you, they are mainly books and features - that might have something to do with it).

JaneBirkin · 06/12/2011 13:49

manicinsomniac, it's possible to read something, even quite intentionally and thoroughly without either approving of it or liking it.

You seem to imply that there might be something positive to be gained simply by reading a paper filled with tosh, and that those who might have read it in abject disgust were nonetheless absorbing something of the pleasures it pretends to offer, and ought thus to feel guilty at denouncing it.

People and papers are more complicated than that. But the very idea that you clearly think these papers contain an element of titillation is something that works against you in your argument.

TechnoViking · 06/12/2011 13:51

MrsWifty, the Sun is judged on articles it wrote 25 years ago because it caused such pain, never properly apologised and continues to write in the same vein. Putting sales ahead of the truth is wrong.

The Independent and Guardian are up their own arses with holier than thou attitudes, true.

manicinsomniac · 06/12/2011 13:53

But Jane, surely it is a totaly waste of time to read something you don't like?? If it's not your job why on earth would you bother? Everybody must have better things to do. Yes, I would argue there must be an 'element of titllation' ot people would find something they DID enjoy reading to read.

limitedperiodonly · 06/12/2011 13:57

keSnowbi I picked up my first and last copy of the Spectator at an airport. Didn't notice the cartoons but after reading things by Toby Young, James Delingpole, Alexander Chancellor and Rod Liddle I knew it wasn't for me.

I welcome right-wing views in a know-your-enemy kind of way but not enough to buy that snide sixth-form rag ever again.

Actually, I'd make an exception for Liddle who mostly makes me laugh. But if there was a quarantine confining the rest of them to the Spectator I'd be overjoyed.

cantspel · 06/12/2011 13:59

I read the sun as it has the best sports reporting of all the daily papers.

I read the mail online as well so shoot me. I enjoy both so read both.

SnapesMistressofMerriment · 06/12/2011 14:00

The Mail is faschist drivel, the Sun is just drivel.

I usually read the Guardian or the Independant on Sunday as I don't really like the Observer. I don't get newspapers often though and want one I'll actually enjoy reading. Any Murdoch newspaper is not allowed in my house nor is the Mail.

LiesltheWeasel · 06/12/2011 14:02

From John O'Farrell's Utterly Impartial History of Britain :

'The DM was launched in 1896...part of the founder's winning formula was to give his readers a 'daily hate'.

aquashiv · 06/12/2011 14:08

The Sun is something you read on your tea break. Get aload of that lads and a quick look at the Sport.
The Mail is also for narrow minded, right wing, rascist types who think they are wee bit posh.
I don't think either of them should be taken seriously.

As an aside I rarely buy a newspaper but read on line news from various sources to get a balance.
No Murdoch allowed in this house hold either.

MrsWifty · 06/12/2011 14:10

Sorry, 22 years, didn't have time to check.

My basic point that it's patronising to readers who may not want to wade through the often lengthy and jargon-ridden sentences of the quality press (I'm deliberately not using tabloid and broadsheet as they're paper sizes) to dismiss them as thick, and not otherwise able to decide their own politics. You can disagree with the politics of a paper while still accepting it is well put together, just as you can disagree with the politics of people while accepting they're not evil. Some of my best friends are Tories.

I do understand that not everyone can accept that if people disagree with them, this does not make them thick or fascist.

MrsWifty · 06/12/2011 14:11

is that it's patronising. Gah.

tilder · 06/12/2011 14:11

I think someone earlier in the thread mentioned that all media has an agenda, its knowing what that is and being aware that the info you get is tainted by that agenda. Its unfortunate that the DMs agenda is, as has frequently been pointed out here, anti anything and anyone that isn't a white, middle class male. It can be as responsible as it thinks, it doesn't change the agenda.

maypole1 · 06/12/2011 14:12

Because it dose not support the sandal and hummus eaters points of view

That public sector is king and red ed can do no wrong

It shatters their middle class Boden wearing world view

For instance those who read the guardian will spout on about the tories and their tax evading friends

The guardian is one of the biggest tax evaders but they don't really like to talk about that

They spout on about the eaton educated right as if ed,Blair and brown some how grew up in the getto

NeuromanticisedVisionsofXmas · 06/12/2011 14:13

You're not thick because you aren't able for a "quality" paper, you are thick if you think the Sun is a quality paper, and if you agree with their policies, you're worse.

Its not the quality of the writing, or the length of the words. Its the horrible shit they write in it. It's quite simple.

tilder · 06/12/2011 14:14

Oops, can tell I'm not a journalist with my English! I don't need a disclaimer then Grin

maypole1 · 06/12/2011 14:15

tilder

I am a black working class female and I don't feel that or agree with you

As a black women its the guardian I find myself bulking at it's so liberal it not far off being printed on. Organic banana leaf

tilder · 06/12/2011 14:17

Maypole I don't buy into the Guardian either - not everyone who disagrees with the DM et al agrees with left wing or liberal media. Still doesn't change my view of the DM. Or the Sun for that matter.

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