To wonder how the hell this country got so racist and narrowminded?

[smokinaces]

There is a photo of a letter going round on FB. Basically showing that Aslyum Seekers are getting their gas and electric paid for over Christmas. My god. The comments people are coming out with.

to quote a few:

"What about ones that come over here and get new cars mobile phones etc and we get fuck all. They wouldn't do the same for us if we was that poor and froze we would have our kids taken off us we wouldn't get help to heat our houses up."

"Yeah but a lot of the asylum seekers r terriosts half of them are working for wants his name"

"every tom dick or Harry are allowed into our country to first take all our jobs for half the pay us English need to be paid to pay for our gas electric and every other bill we get thrown at us, secondly to take our placements from our first choice schools cause they got homed near a school of our choice, homed for free!"

"there are english children in this country that dont even have a warm winter coat to wear coz their parents or parent cant a ford to buy one coz most of their benifits go on tryin to heat damp houses and feed them with at least one hot meal a day even if it is only beans on toast.....ive yet to see an under feed immagrint whether asylum seeeker or not and as for designer clothes that under privalaged english child only dream of owning but u see them on the backs of people that dont deserve them (imagrants asylum seekers)"

"im sick to death of working my tits off 6days aweek when im off sick or unable to work and ask for help all i got was £26 a week what a load of bullshit im english born and bred worked from the age off 17 and pay tax all my live and people walk in to this country and get free this free that f##king crap an 90% of bristish people think this to blood sucks, think of the people that fought for this country all them years ago BORN AND BRED"

Seriously?? How the fucking hell did we get to the point where this is what people think? Honestly?? I dont even know what to say to the last two - I tried arguing constructively earlier in the day, but cant even be bothered to waste my breath on the last two. They called me a "goody two shoes" and seem determined to blame everything on "immigrants".

I'm actually ashamed to live in the same town as some of these people.

AIBU to wonder where this country goes from here when this is what crap they spout? Is it the media's fault? or education?

(the worst bit? at least 1 of these people quoted are a 3rd generation European "immigrant" but thats different of course )

creighton - you have obvisouly only used it when directed at you. So you have used your 3 years at Uni to come up with "it must be racist" in actual fact the term "chip on your shoulder" is used in numerous cercumstances, normaly directed at people who seem to have an axe to grind. This could be in any situation, family fued, benefits bashing, classes wars etc. It is by no mean a racist sler.

creighton - i guessed correctly that you were not British. Are you saying that if you are not white you cannot be British?
In terms of shade, How could i of guessed. here are many shades to peoples skin. I do not know where you are decended from, It could be West Indies, Africa, Middles East, Far East. How could guess what shade you are. It was you who said "fuck of blackie".

Do you now see my point.

Creighton - there is nothing for me to calm down about. It is you who has used this thread to rant you racist views against the British and Whites.
I am not the racist here and you have truly shown yourself to be one.

MrSpoc - most of them have committed heinous crimes such as wanting to make a good life to support themselves, wanting to flee conflict and live in peace, and wanting to be able to provide a future for their families.

No-one leaves behind their life, their family, their home, to travel thousands of miles to a strange country where they have no certainty of their future, only hope of a better life, if what they are leaving behind is a nice comfortable life.

Some of the people you have accused of being "kicked out" of their country left when they were children, were granted permission to remain here until they were aged 17 1/2 years old, then told that they were not allowed to stay because their country is now safe/ they can fend for themselves.

I will say again, the government does not feed them, house them, clothe them, or provide them with anything more than emergency medical treatment. They only survive through working on the black market or through the charity of friends.

Again, you seem to think that because people are deemed to be an 'illegal' immigrant, they are terrible criminals. Your perspective could not be further from the truth. I really would urge you to read some of the information provided by organisations such as the Refugee Council.

And I will say it again, you are the person the OP complains about. Your ignorance of the reality of these people's lives does you no credit.

"Yet everybody tries to do it to the UK " Who do you mean , Mr Spoc ? People born in the UK ? Not born here , but resident ? People living overseas criticizing the UK?

I have repeatedly heard Spanish & Portuguese people debating the inhumane aspects of their countries' pasts , and those countries are certainly considered culpable for their crimes by huge numbers of their own citizens .

Agree with most of your arguments Thistledew , FWIW

Actually, I think it would probably be incorrect to call MrSpoc racist. He is highly xenophobic, though.

cityhobgoblin heartfelt

It feels quite lonely to ague this point most of the time, so it has been really great to see that the majority of the views on this thread have been to treat immigrants as human beings.

Thistledew - as i has said numerous times on here, yet you fail to grasp the basics.

I understand why people come to our country for refuge. I probably understand more then most on here. ( i served in Iraq 2003, i saw the damage, i also worked with Iraqis who helped us and were granted leave to remain in the UK for their work. Had they of stayed, they would of been killed or worse.

Immergrants are vitel for our eccomany. "ILLEGAL" immigrants are not, they are a cost to the country.

They are not necciserily crimianls but some do turn to it for money.

We are not big enough to allow everyone in. We do not have enough resources to allow that. Yes it would be nice but we cannot.

When Illegal immigrants arrive here and cannot go back to their country, they are housed, feed and watered. What do you think happends to them? Have you not seen the immigration camps we have, that actually does this?

No one has said otherwiSE ABOUT TREATING IMMIGRANTS AS ANYTHING LESS THAN HUMANE.

You are also mixing up two issues here, immigrants and also Illegal Immigrants.

It feels quite lonely to ague this point most of the time, so it has been really great to see that the majority of the views on this thread have been to treat immigrants as human beings.

That was not the point though, the British are probably one of the less racist nations on the planet.

The issue is the perception of unfairness (probably partly based on reality, despite the comforting theoretical outcomes given above) that is driving resentment of more than the usual racist/white supremacist lot.

That, and the clear evidence that the Government has lost control of this area, means some unpleasant parties are gaining power on the back of this, and that needs to be dealt within these risky times.

Whatmeworry - exactly.

MrSpoc - I hear what you are saying- but you are also failing to grasp my point.

You accept that regularised immigrants are of benefit to a country, but say that 'illegal' ones are not.

If you stopped making immigration a matter of being legal or illegal then all immigrants would be legal. There would be no such thing as an illegal immigrant.

If there were no immigration controls, employers would be able to employ the best, most productive person for the job. If all the jobs end up being filled by non-British nationals, then great - raise the taxes so that they can support us all on a lavish, benefit funded lifestyle!

And yes, I do know about the immigration prisons. I met someone recently who had spent three years in one. She had come here as a student. When she was half way through her course, her father (who was a prominent figure in the opposition party in her country of origin) was killed, so she could no longer afford her course fees. She did a bad thing. She changed her immigration document so that she could work for more than 20 hours a week so that she could afford to continue her studies. She was caught out, and served 12 months imprisonment for her crime. The Home Office then tried to send her back to her country of origin, but due to her father's connections, they refused to issue her with a travel document. Three years she was kept locked up. For what?

If choosing which part of the world you want to live in was not a criminal offence, we would not, as tax payers, have to fund these horrific detention centres. There would be no need to detain people like her.

Mr Spoc, you are making yourself look rather silly at the moment. I am very tempted to get my Zimbabwean best friend on here to tell you why she and her family felt they had to flee approx 10 yrs ago.

MrSpoc, I have not ranted, I have written in clear English. You have not.

You are the one that assumes that illegal immigrants are the cause of crime in this country, as if it did not exist before. You are the one who is ignorant enough to think that some one who is 'exiled' is a criminal of some sort. If you had followed the news over the last few years, you would know that people 'stuck' abroad without status are often at risk of torture and illegal imprisonment and so have had to leave their homes.

I was correct in my use of the chip on the shoulder phrase, as you well know.

I have never said anything anti white or anti British. I hope I made it clear from my posts that white people should not be so complacent and not take an easy view of history. There is ugliness and pain in every country's history. British people seem to have a benign view of themselves and their history which is wrong.

I, in my ignorance, made a comment about South Africa that was corrected by someone else. Now I know that SA got its independence from Britain in 1910. Have you learned anything today, have you listened to anyone else today?

Oh and I have not said that I am not British.

Thistledew - It was not nice what happended to your friend but she DID break the law.

Yes get rid of the iilegal status then there is not issue except - lack of resources, food, housing etc. Hence why we need to have tighter controls

NinkyNonker - saqme here. i had a friend who joined the army in 1999 with me. he then had to leave to go back to Zimbawe. The reson was, His farm was destroyed and family killed because of his race. His family bought the farm a few years early.
I nver heard from him again.

creighton - Here you go again. If my english is not clear then WTF are you commenting for. You look stupid, saying you cannot understand a word I am writing.

"CHIP ON SHOULDER" is not a fucking racist sler you numpty.

As for illegal immigrants becaue the cause of all crime. I HAVE NOT said that. Please show me "without" cropping the sentance exaclty what I have said. now get of your high horse.

Or will accuse that frase of also being racist.

Thistledew Thu 01-Dec-11 17:14:01
MrSpoc - How far back do you think we should go before we stop holding people accountable?

I am still waiting for an answer to this question, and genuinely interested in your response.

How far back do you think we should go before we stop holding people accountable?

I think one generation tops.

Getting rid of illegal status is an interesting idea, but I think you are underestimating the numbers who will arrive without being able to support themselves, and under the UK/EU law its clearly very hard to get rid of people once they are here. At that point the state will have to stepin, and if its in the midst of a Depression then all bets are off.

MrSpoc, here is your post about illegal immigrants and crime.

*Thistledew - how much money doe you think is spent on finding these people? How much is spent trying to stop these people. How much damage is done due to illegal immigrants such as

Muggings
drugs
prostitues
etc.

We cannot welcome them with open arms and give them jobs as we do not have enough resources to deal with it. We would soon have not houses, jobs or the basic food we need.

And to agree with criegghton, come on - read it again and it comes across as very Anti-White - therefore it is very racist.*

'As empires go they did not sack cities and build walls of the inhabitants skulls, indulge in wholesale mass genocide of millions in collective farms or gas chambers or deliberate starvation.'

Just on a point of information here -- I'll admit no gas chambers, and walls of inhabitants' skulls might have been hard to find, but extracting taxes and raw materials for centuries, and deliberate starvation/forced emigration/land clearances were all carried out on a small island not a million miles west of Britain.

The key to it being workable does have to be that the bill for any income support/housing/medical care/education gets passed on to the person's country of origin. There would have to be a raft of international agreements put in place before it could happen. You couldn't just open the borders tomorrow.

I do believe that it would be workable though. I don't understand all the complexities of the World Bank and IMF but stand by my conviction that the finances of all the countries in the world are just too intertwined for any one to be able to refuse to pick up their tab.

People forget that it would work all ways - if the UK got 'too crowded', or our standard of living was not able to cope with the numbers wanting to live here, you would be completely free to go else where. America doesn't seem to have a problem with overcrowding. South of France is quite spacious. Good weather too. If you felt really adventurous you could strike out for India or Africa.

Also, developing countries would quickly realise that people would vote with their feet if they were not properly supported with housing, healthcare and education in their home country. There would be a strong incentive for these to be provided by that country, which in turn would mean less people wanting to leave. Let's face it, if your sunny African country would guarantee you a minimum level of healthcare, housing and education, would you still be so inclined to up sticks to rainy old England?

The point that I make again and again, and with which I don't think anyone really disagrees, is that Immigration Control as we know it does not work. We need to find another solution. I know my idea sounds idealistic, but I am not alone in hoping for this. There are a growing number of people in academia who are looking at how to make it workable. We need another solution.

mathanxiety, you have just said something similar to what I want to post.

If people/countries are only to be held accountable for one generation, should the English/British be forgiven 900 years of attacks/abuse carried out in Ireland? Should the Irish trust the British completely when the Good Friday Agreement (?)is 25 years old/one generation?

What kind of people are you mixing with that they have these views in the first place and are so easily manipulated and sheep like? I have never seen these kinds of views amongst my FB friends, maybe you need some new 'friends'.

MrSpoc -- What is funny about your posts is the fact that you are complaining about forriners and misspelling every second word. It's the hilarious juxtaposition of 'patriotism' and lack of respect for the conventions of the English language that people are commenting on.

The big problem in British perception is the feeling that it is a small island with limited resources, a feeling that goes very deep and has profound effects on politics even now in this era of the global economy. In a nutshell, it is felt that there is not enough in the pot for everyone and if one group succeeds in getting something then all the rest will go without and there will be nothing left for the deserving. This feeling is responsible for the main political divide in Britain whoever suggested earlier that the issue is class rather than immigrant/native hit the nail on the head. The irrational idée fixée of the limited amount in the pot leaves British people open to manipulation by all kinds of interested parties it's a sort of opium of the people.