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AIBU?

Share your dilemmas and get honest opinions from other Mumsnetters.

To wonder how the hell this country got so racist and narrowminded?

277 replies

smokinaces · 30/11/2011 21:49

There is a photo of a letter going round on FB. Basically showing that Aslyum Seekers are getting their gas and electric paid for over Christmas. My god. The comments people are coming out with.

to quote a few:

"What about ones that come over here and get new cars mobile phones etc and we get fuck all. They wouldn't do the same for us if we was that poor and froze we would have our kids taken off us we wouldn't get help to heat our houses up."

"Yeah but a lot of the asylum seekers r terriosts half of them are working for wants his name"

"every tom dick or Harry are allowed into our country to first take all our jobs for half the pay us English need to be paid to pay for our gas electric and every other bill we get thrown at us, secondly to take our placements from our first choice schools cause they got homed near a school of our choice, homed for free!"

"there are english children in this country that dont even have a warm winter coat to wear coz their parents or parent cant a ford to buy one coz most of their benifits go on tryin to heat damp houses and feed them with at least one hot meal a day even if it is only beans on toast.....ive yet to see an under feed immagrint whether asylum seeeker or not and as for designer clothes that under privalaged english child only dream of owning but u see them on the backs of people that dont deserve them (imagrants asylum seekers)"

"im sick to death of working my tits off 6days aweek when im off sick or unable to work and ask for help all i got was £26 a week what a load of bullshit im english born and bred worked from the age off 17 and pay tax all my live and people walk in to this country and get free this free that f##king crap an 90% of bristish people think this to blood sucks, think of the people that fought for this country all them years ago BORN AND BRED"

Seriously?? How the fucking hell did we get to the point where this is what people think? Honestly?? I dont even know what to say to the last two - I tried arguing constructively earlier in the day, but cant even be bothered to waste my breath on the last two. They called me a "goody two shoes" and seem determined to blame everything on "immigrants".

I'm actually ashamed to live in the same town as some of these people.

AIBU to wonder where this country goes from here when this is what crap they spout? Is it the media's fault? or education?

(the worst bit? at least 1 of these people quoted are a 3rd generation European "immigrant" but thats different of course Hmm)

OP posts:
Thistledew · 01/12/2011 14:20

There are Americans who complain about British oppression(and Spanish and French and Dutch, to name a few). They are normally referred to as Native Americans.

There is also a big difference between America as an ex-colony and the rest of the British empire.

America gained it's independence before the era of mass-industrialisation had taken hold. It was therefore able to build up its industry and manufacturing at the same rate as the UK and other Western countries. One of the big problems that colonialisation caused was that the UK (and other western countries) took out the valuable raw materials from their colonies, but the manufacturing of the raw product into products such as railways, and communications networks was done in the UK. UK companies got very rich as a result, and the colonies were left without an decent infrastructure to manufacture the things that they then became dependant upon. Once they gained independence, they were no longer provided with these goods, but found them too expensive to buy.

Also, the colonies were all governed by people from their head state. They were governed in a way that was beneficial to us, not necessarily to the country that was being governed. Again, when the countries gained independence, they were suddenly without all the people who had the knowledge, skills and training to run the systems they had put in place. It has also been a struggle for many ex-colonies to adapt the systems left behind to ones that would better reflect their own traditions and cultures, rather than continuing to try to adapt their own cultures to fit an imposed system of bureaucracy.

aubergineinautumn · 01/12/2011 14:21

We are becoming scarily like germany after the wall street crash, all hard up and looking for a scapegoat.

Thistledew · 01/12/2011 14:25

Whatmeworry - I am afraid your confidence in the British Empire is misplaced. One thing that made the news this year was the brutal tactics used by the British as late as the 1950s and 1960s in the Mau Mau rebellion. I know this is just one example, but it does not take long to find others.

Whatmeworry · 01/12/2011 14:27

The effects of colonialism are well rehearsed and rehashed, pro and con ( I see you are over-egged on the con side above), but again - what on earth has all this got to do with dealing with 2011 Britain and its possible loss of control of its immigration policy?

BaublesandCuntingCarolSingers · 01/12/2011 14:35

baubles please do tell me whether you think that tutsi/hutu conflict is fine because it is "the law of the jungle"

Save your mardy little Hmm face, would you?

When I made my "law of the jungle" comment, I was referring to warring Native American tribes. Sorry if I didn't make that clear. Obviously, the conflict in Rwanda is much, much more recent and I'm not sure if you're trying to get me to say that the genocide there is "par for the course" Of course I don't think that.

There's a difference between the ancient tribes to which I was actually referring and the Tutsi/Hutu conflict. We shouldn't be witnessing such barbarity now as then.

bemybebe · 01/12/2011 14:40

"There's a difference between the ancient tribes to which I was actually referring and the Tutsi/Hutu conflict. "

Precisely my point. Times change. And you deserve "your mardy little face" just for being obnoxious in this message.

Tianc · 01/12/2011 14:47

Rather, um, selective, account of the international slave trade, Whatmeworry, and your dates are no better: British Empire ran roughly 16th century to 1960s, with several colonies before and after that date.

And, er, yes, we did actually do starvation in South Africa when we invented concentration camps (although not for the same reasons as the Nazis). And many other of the crimes you mention, unfortunately.

But quite apart from that, the problem with Little Englanders is that's what you end up with: a Little England.

If you want to have a post-colonial but still important position on the world stage ? and the direct and indirect-but-longterm benefits from this ? you have to be part of that world.

Or do you imagine a one-way valve where Brits can go off and work in Dubai, but no one from Dubai can come and shell out thousands for a UK degree?

BaublesandCuntingCarolSingers · 01/12/2011 14:48

Only meeting obnoxious with obnoxious, lovey. I think I'd been answering you in a civilised manner until you pulled the humph face on me.

Whatmeworry · 01/12/2011 14:50

I was referring to warring Native American tribes

And ignoring that they fought, raped and killed each other tooth and nail, and most of their destruction was due to the US of A, not previous colonial powers.

Is this an argument for giving the Scots and Welsh permission to open untaxed gambling facilities btw?

bemybebe · 01/12/2011 14:50

"If you want to have a post-colonial but still important position on the world stage ? and the direct and indirect-but-longterm benefits from this ? you have to be part of that world."

100% agree.

bemybebe · 01/12/2011 14:51

"lovey"? you are feeling really hurt by "hmm" emoticon? or dear

BaublesandCuntingCarolSingers · 01/12/2011 14:52

No, not ignoring, I'm just saying that just because they did it to each other, didn't give us carte blanche to go and try and wipe the lot of 'em out and take their land into the bargain.

BaublesandCuntingCarolSingers · 01/12/2011 14:53

Hurt, no. Finding it unnecessary, yes.

Grow up.

bemybebe · 01/12/2011 14:58

baubles you are free to sulk if you want. lovey.

Whatmeworry · 01/12/2011 15:00

Rather, um, selective, account of the international slave trade, Whatmeworry, and your dates are no better: British Empire ran roughly 16th century to 1960s, with several colonies before and after that date.

Of course its selective, I wrote a paragraph not a fucking history text book! But I am correct re when Empire started to really expand and contract.

And again - what the fuck does quibbling about Empires have to do with Immigration policy in 2011 Britain?

Or do you just want to have a guilt-wallow about how terrible the British Empire was, in which case you should be bloody glad you are not Italian, Spanish, Russian, Belgian, Turkish, Almohade, German, Inca, Aztec, Han, Hun, Timurid, Magyar or even Roman. Now they knew how toreally be beastly totheir colonials.

BaublesandCuntingCarolSingers · 01/12/2011 15:00

And you are free to grow the fuck up, sugartits.

bemybebe · 01/12/2011 15:02
Grin
BaublesandCuntingCarolSingers · 01/12/2011 15:02

Oh ffs don't disarm me by grinning at me.

Angry
bemybebe · 01/12/2011 15:04
Tianc · 01/12/2011 15:05

"And again - what the fuck does quibbling about Empires have to do with Immigration policy in 2011 Britain?"

I refer you to my previous answer (3rd para onwards).

And why are you banging on about guilt?

Thistledew · 01/12/2011 15:09

It has to do with the fact that Immigration controls are a new creation. Whilst there have been systems in place for hundreds of years of issuing passports, and requiring people to get them stamped when they entered a country of which they were not a national, the idea that the Sovereign state should control which people were or were not allowed to enter, should be able to put conditions on their rights and entitlements whilst they are here, and should be able to criminalise and lock up people who infringe these conditions, is a very new idea. It was as late as 1971 that the first Act of Parliament was passed to impose the immigration restrictions that we have nowadays.

This was a time that coincided with two things - it was not long after the last few colonies gained independence, and it was also the era when international flights began to be available and affordable to the general population.

However, since then, we have progressed faster and faster towards a global economy, and truly free movement of goods and services. This is genie that cannot be put back in the bottle.

It suits us, in our rich, Western countries, to benefit from the cheap goods that we buy from countries where labour is cheap. We lead an opulent lifestyle because of it.

It also suits the leaders of those countries to keep the conditions for their workers poor, because the bosses of those companies realise that their businesses would be less profitable if they were obliged to pay their workers a decent wage.

It suits us in the West that these workers are paid low wages, because if they were paid more, then we would have to pay more, and our consumer lifestyles would drop as a result.

Big businesses everywhere have the ear of governments. Those who have nothing have no power, because all they have to lay down is their lives, and the people in power don't actually care- it will only mean less people to cause trouble. Those who have very little are too scared to rock the boat, lest they end up as the ones with nothing.

Immigration control is essential to rich, Westernised countries, because we are far enough up the food chain here that we can invest in maintaining a democracy which (kind of) has the power to change our government, and to have access to and equity before the law.

We can only maintain this if we put in place systems to maintain the condition of 'them and us'.

What I am trying to say, in a rather long winded way, is that we as a nation grew rich off the back of colonialisation. We said then that there was nothing wrong in us having the freedom to go to another country and "make use of resources that those backward natives were not using". When those 'backward natives' started to think that they might like to make use of the resources that we have in the UK, such as justice, democracy, and a reasonable standard of living, we decided it was time to pull up the drawbridge. Now, we instead send our companies, and our British Pounds to those poorer countries, and continue to plunder, knowing full well that strict immigration controls make it impossible for the people there to pack up their bags and leave.

Immigration control is an experiment which is not working. The number of people that are here without 'permission' shows that it is not a realistic way of addressing the problems that it tries to combat. We need to look at other ways to combat the 'problem' that freedom of movement brings with it. Tighter immigration control is like putting more and more bolts on the stable door, without noticing that the rest of the stable has long since been taken down to have a Tesco built on the site.

There has been a recent academic conference looking at the idea of reciprocal welfare benefit agreements - i.e. anyone who comes here and claims benefits can do so, but the bill is passed back to their country of nationality. This would incentivise the governments of poorer countries to improve the welfare states in their own countries, so that there is less of a push effect on migration. Complete freedom to travel to look for work would lead to an eventual redistribution of recourses on a worldwide basis.

[Disclaimer- these are my own thoughts that I am still working through, and have not properly formulated into a coherent thesis, so I am quite aware that there are still holes in my arguments, and that I haven't got all the answers here!!]

Thistledew · 01/12/2011 15:11

P.S Sorry for the essay, and have a Thanks if you managed to read all of it!

Whatmeworry · 01/12/2011 15:22

I refer you to my previous answer (3rd para onwards).

Little Englanders, having to have open borders to be a Global Power and screwing uni fees off Dubai students? That is not an argument against control of immigration, its a set of statements totally unconnected by rhyme,reason or logic and all provably incorrect.

Thistledew · 01/12/2011 15:32

No, in order to maintain our status as a Global Power, we have to maintain our borders the best we can.

Immigration control is all about having power and control over people in a weak position.

MrSpoc · 01/12/2011 15:36

I agree with everything Whatmeworry has just said (as always).

Yes we invaded loads of countries. (100's of years ago). That is in the past. Different law of the land etc. (as BaublesandCuntingCarolSingers so rightly contridicted herself).

You may of forgotten but the UK was also invaded many times by Vikings, Saxons, Irish. It was a sign of the times and not worth getting upset about the antics of our ancesters.

How ever this does not give cart blanche for everyone around the world to just come here to live. We are a small island with little resources. It does need to be checked and kept in line.