To wonder how the hell this country got so racist and narrowminded?

[smokinaces]

There is a photo of a letter going round on FB. Basically showing that Aslyum Seekers are getting their gas and electric paid for over Christmas. My god. The comments people are coming out with.

to quote a few:

"What about ones that come over here and get new cars mobile phones etc and we get fuck all. They wouldn't do the same for us if we was that poor and froze we would have our kids taken off us we wouldn't get help to heat our houses up."

"Yeah but a lot of the asylum seekers r terriosts half of them are working for wants his name"

"every tom dick or Harry are allowed into our country to first take all our jobs for half the pay us English need to be paid to pay for our gas electric and every other bill we get thrown at us, secondly to take our placements from our first choice schools cause they got homed near a school of our choice, homed for free!"

"there are english children in this country that dont even have a warm winter coat to wear coz their parents or parent cant a ford to buy one coz most of their benifits go on tryin to heat damp houses and feed them with at least one hot meal a day even if it is only beans on toast.....ive yet to see an under feed immagrint whether asylum seeeker or not and as for designer clothes that under privalaged english child only dream of owning but u see them on the backs of people that dont deserve them (imagrants asylum seekers)"

"im sick to death of working my tits off 6days aweek when im off sick or unable to work and ask for help all i got was £26 a week what a load of bullshit im english born and bred worked from the age off 17 and pay tax all my live and people walk in to this country and get free this free that f##king crap an 90% of bristish people think this to blood sucks, think of the people that fought for this country all them years ago BORN AND BRED"

Seriously?? How the fucking hell did we get to the point where this is what people think? Honestly?? I dont even know what to say to the last two - I tried arguing constructively earlier in the day, but cant even be bothered to waste my breath on the last two. They called me a "goody two shoes" and seem determined to blame everything on "immigrants".

I'm actually ashamed to live in the same town as some of these people.

AIBU to wonder where this country goes from here when this is what crap they spout? Is it the media's fault? or education?

(the worst bit? at least 1 of these people quoted are a 3rd generation European "immigrant" but thats different of course )

there is nothing "very dishonourable" about the past, the country was operating in the different world with different values, values that are not acceptable now, but that were acceptable then

Oh really?

I'm sure that the natives of North America didn't feel that our values were acceptable when we were burning people out of their homes/raping and pillaging them. I wasn't aware that it had ever been acceptable to murder and maim in order to get your thieving mitts on land that is not yours.

" It's not the immigrants fault you haven't got a job, fuckwit. "

No need for personal abuse.

As I understand it, the Government is now " cracking down" so they are making it tough for those who have to apply to work or study - ie exactly the types we want - while in effect losing control of everything else.

There is no doubt there has been huge pressure on resources by incoming communities in certain areas over the last decade, the news is suppressed but every so often you see it - some border bureaucrat basically showing there is no control ( before being rapidly moved out the limelight), hospital services saying they are undersized in areas, inner city councils running out of english language course places etc, because there are far more people in the area than is officially admitted. There is pressure on accommodation as well. To say this is happening is not racist, what's racist is what one does about it.

IMO the government does not want to admit the chaos, so sits on it's hands rather than admitting to the problem ( because then the shit would hit the fan politically) with the result that the BNP, EDL etc can play on the frustrations of those most impacted, as well as those who are naturally racist. And they are.

Enter a large recession and the ante is upped. I dont think it's worth reading 1800s British history and beating oneself up, but it is worth reading about 1930s history - people who feel they are getting a shitty deal in poor economic times opt for strongman leaders, and a classic tactic is to victimize a group of outsiders.

So in essence if we want to reduce racism in the UK we need to face up to what is happening with control of immigration, and make it clear to everyone what the solutions are so it can be discussed democratically rather than hiding it (government policy) or howling "racist" every time someone says there is a problem.

Because if we don't, there really will be a problem!

Personal abuse? It was a hypothetical monologue, not aimed at anyone on this thread. Sorry that you took it personally.

You were replying to my point about conscience and guilt.

It appeared your comments were directed at me, however as it was a hypothetical " fuckwit " then fair enough, I was mistaken.

baubles you should really read scientific research about the rivalry between different tribes and methods adopted to achieve victory in battle for resources to stop thinking that natives are somehow "honorable" and do not rape, maim, kill to achieve what is needed in the interest of the tribe.

"as far as I can remember we did not colonialise somalia did we?"

Actually, we did.

You see the problem? We don't know our history, and don't understand how much of our current position in the world derives from it ? and how we're seen by other countries because of it.

Which does rather matter for our current and future situation.

The UK is a tiny country in the North Sea which punches massively above its weight culturally, politically and economically. And it's because we had an Empire.

Acknowledge this and get on with it.

i agree whatmeworry

its interesting as more and more "reasonable" people are speaking up and artuculating thats its an issue, a real issue. and raising the issue does not make you an card bearing member of the EDL either. and the people that find it an issue are NOT all white. Where I live there is for growing hostility towards white Easttern Europe from British blacks, for example

I have lived in a busy UK city all my life, and its never been an issue. just part and parcel of life, in fact when I leave my city and go to the country it feels weird!

meh, I am going to not say what I was about to in fact, fuck it, leave it

baubles also shopping in primark and buying meat is still considered perfectly acceptable whilst there is a high chance someone in the 24c will be typing on a thread on MN about "dishonorable" and morally repugnant behaviour of their ancestors. times change and people change with times

did we? ooooops

I get we have a fairly shitty track record. really, so do alot of other countries. But given the main issue I see in my neighbourhoods is eastern europeans its kind of irelevant to the issuue we face where I live right now

Agree Whatmeworry and Porcamiseria.

"baubles you should really read scientific research about the rivalry between different tribes and methods adopted to achieve victory in battle for resources to stop thinking that natives are somehow "honorable" and do not rape, maim, kill to achieve what is needed in the interest of the tribe"

If warring tribes in a common land want to harm one another, then that's the law of the jungle. I still maintain that we, and others, never had any business stealing land and homes from natives of other countries. We didn't like it when the Germans tried to do it to us and rightly so. We do often forget that the British invaded countries as a weekend hobby, once. I don't think that we should carry the can for what our ancestors did, no, but I do think it's naive to think that our empirical past should have NO bearing on the state of affairs in our country now. History doesn't just reset itself with the passing of each generation. It is just left for the enxt generation to bear it's legacy.

"If warring tribes in a common land want to harm one another, then that's the law of the jungle. I still maintain that we, and others, never had any business stealing land and homes from natives of other countries. "

There was no concept of "other countries" if the land did not belong to one of the big ones of the old world.

"We didn't like it when the Germans tried to do it to us and rightly so. We do often forget that the British ..."

Again, you are mixing today's values of behaviour with those of the people you are trying to judge as "dishonorable". Any serious historian will tell you it is wrong. Not to say that we should not learn from history but it is different and this is not what you are trying to achieve.

"If warring tribes in a common land want to harm one another, then that's the law of the jungle."

Almost missed it. So you think it is ok (=the strongest wins) to harm one is the land is common. So what is your position on the war in the former Yugoslavia and Tutsi/Hutu conflict in the common land of Rwanda?

Sorry for typos
"to harm one another if the land is common."

I'm sure that the natives of North America didn't feel that our values were acceptable when we were burning people out of their homes/raping and pillaging them. I wasn't aware that it had ever been acceptable to murder and maim in order to get your thieving mitts on land that is not yours.

Good lord, the merest glance at global history tells you that everybody has been at this since human history began. Hunter gatherers are still getting booted off tribal land all over the world today.

And as to British Empire being worse thieving bastards than any others that again is bollocks, by rapacious empire standards the British were rather genteel, and ditto their rule was better than many.

I really dont think it helps to beat yourself up about a world of 100-200 years ago to look forward to decisions we need to make in the next 2 to 3.

"We don't understand our history , and don't understand how much our current position in the world derives from it - and how we're seen by other countries because of it .
Which does rather matter for our current and future situation " . Totally agree with you Tianc , especially about the UK punching above its weight , with grim consequences .

< wimps out of actual discussion as too busy , but very interesting thread >

"I really dont think it helps to beat yourself up about a world of 100-200 years ago to look forward to decisions we need to make in the next 2 to 3."

So it's a complete mystery to you why the British Embassy in Iran was invaded last week?

Because to the Iranians it's not: "Iran and UK - centuries of mistrust"

And it's a mystery why the Americans have a big party every year on 4th July?

This is like talking to, I dunno, someone who's been teaching for 50 years and can't remember all her pupils ? but her pupils all remember her and the profound affects, good or bad, that she had on their life.

For the UK to say, "Oh now is Year Zero, we just need to think of the future" is to deny the past. I'm not saying we should all be consumed by daily guilt about it, but we must at least recognise it.

Because the countries we're dealing with remember it very well.

Thank you Tianc, that's what I was trying to say albeit much more hamfistedly.

fair point Tianc

yes bupcakes, be more eloquent eh!!!!

There is plenty of mistrust, even mutual hate between different countries - look at relations between India and Pakistan, Iran/Iraq (if you still remember), various examples in Africa .

I am always amused by those demanding some sort of repentance from the UK for the centuries of oppression - most of those countries should be looking at the modern causes of poverty, oppression, human rights abuses and gender inequalities. What about Zimbabwe, how long they will be blaming Britain for the shit that is happening there? I do not hear the USA complaining about British oppression even on the 4th of July . I wonder why.

fair point too bemybebe

clearly this is NOT a problem that we can resolve today

Oh now is Year Zero, we just need to think of the future" is to deny the past. I'm not saying we should all be consumed by daily guilt about it, but we must at least recognise it.

OK. Britain ruled a lot of the world for about 100 years up to about 100 years ago. This was mainly a result of defeating France in the Seven Years War. Soon after that they lost the US-to-be because they miscalculated its net future value and overvalued India and the Caribbean,ence the 4thof July. They lost the empire after bankrupting themselves in 2 world wars and a depression.

As empires go they did not sack cities and build walls of the inhabitants skulls, indulge in wholesale mass genocide of millions in collective farms or gas chamers or deliberate starvation. As in the "What Did The Romans Ever Do" the Brit Empire was better than most in the way it treated its colonies, and did disgraceful things like banning slavery and wife burning, and building infrastructure and teaching themto beat us at our own sports.

Recognised. Happy now?

But I have not got a clue how what you are saying is relevant to dealing with immigrant policy in 2011 Britain.

baubles please do tell me whether you think that tutsi/hutu conflict is fine because it is "the law of the jungle"