to think these people were selfish and rude.

[cakeoclock]

The push chair v wheelchair on a bus just reminded me what happened this weekend.

I was christmas shopping with friends (one in a wheelchair) in Harvey Nicks Leeds and it was pretty busy. We stood waiting for the lift, the doors opened and it was rammed full of people (no push chairs). Not one of the miserable gits got out to make space for the wheelchair just looked away until the doors shut and we had to wait ages for another lift. There were escalators less than a minute walk from the lift.

AIBU to think that this is lazy, selfish and awful and to hope if any of you are reading you feel ashamed.

Has it occurred to anybody here that some of the views might be from people who don't use lifts at all? I don't, I don't like them and don't like escalators much either, I'd rather use the stairs. My point was around 'hidden' issues that nobody else would be aware of. It's really nobody else's place to judge what they don't know.

I'd prioritise an unsteady elderly person, frankly, they're at risk of falling, getting mugged, pushed over, anything. Children tend to be accompanied and so do many disabled people. Either way, there ARE people looking out for the vulnerable all the time, even posting on this thread, and I resent the implications of 'the affected' that nobody else cares. It's untrue and unfair.

I think the other thing is, that it is difficult to express yourself on the internet appropriately.

I know I've certainly felt that I've been misunderstood (here and elsewhere) and I am actually an incredibly reasonable person in RL. Sometimes, it's just hard to find the language to express thoughts. And sometimes people can take offence at what is intended to be a lighthearted, throwaway comment because they interpret comments through their own experience and agenda.

I still generally think that most people are reasonable people. I have to. I don't think I could live in the world with them if I didn't

LyingWitch is right too.

Oh, and 30 mins was the most extreme example I've been a part of, 10 to 15 mins average in our local shopping centre. During which time an able bodied person could have run up and down the stairs approx 10 times. Most places I've been have the stairs located near the lifts, is this not the norm?

pag but this was a lift that was already full.

it wasn't a queue of people waiting to get in a lift where one would think to let the wheelchair go first - these were people who had got in the lift in a different place without any knowledge that there was a wheelchair user somewhere wanting to get in.

And the expectation is that as soon as they see said wheelchair user they should all get out on mass and let him get in.

And it is seen as acceptable for wheelchair users to say that they would ram the lift/wish they had a cattle prod attached for the tossers who didn't do so.

I have to go but just a last point

Lying, I don't think the assumption that people don't care has been made about any except those who have happily posted 'why the fuck should I, there isn't a sign' etc.

FolkGirl . I try to imagine the world is reasonable and often time it is. But some days someone shouts 'fucking retard' at my son and another day someone posts 'why the fuck should someone in a chair go before me, their time isn't mire important than mine' and it makes my confidence wobble a bit.

there is one other issue which I don't think has been raised on this thread (although having not read it I can't be 100% sure).

Many people are afraid to offer help/make allowances for fear they will offend the disabled person. I have had people come and offer me help with the precursor of "I hope I don't offend you asking,"

Because while there are some entitled disabled people out there there are also some who will simply not accept any help what so ever and see the offer of such as an insult to their independence. And this puts people off.

There is a blind woman who travels on the underground. She has been well documented for her attitudes to her fellow commuters. When people offer her a seat she has been known to say "fuck off, it's my fucking eyes that don't work, not my fucking legs," and subjecting them to a further tirade of abuse. Now, if someone offers someone help like that and gets that response, how likely is it you think they will want to offer help to a disabled person again in future?

I don't always need help, but I can decline it graciously. Because while I might not need help today, tomorrow I might, and the person offering might not be prepared to do so tomorrow if I told him to fuck off today, is he?

The problem is that there are so many unwritten rules surrounding disability - must not offer too much help for fear of patronising/offending/must make allowances for disability - that people generally can't do right for doing wrong.

Yeah, well tbh, Pag, those people are just shits.

I can't believe that people would do that (not doubting what you say, just expressing incredulity that people would think it appropriate to behave like that).

I am sure that most of us do what we can to make other people's lives more pleasant, whatever their personal circumstances. I'd be mortified if I thought I'd offended or upset someone.

Most of us aren't like that and, if I ever heard/saw that happening, I'd like to think I'd step in and do something. Not sure what though!

Wannabe
The thread isn't two sides. I wouldn't ram anyone, wouldn't approve of that, wouldn't act like that. I assumed it was hyperbole and grim humour but I may be wrong.

Just because I think people should broadly leave lifts for the least able, should conduct their lives with an attitude of helpfulness and manners. But no, I don't think there should be compulsion.

But I do find it really surprising that people think that they have no social responsibility unless there is a rule or a notice. I do find that odd.

Well you'd think wouldn't you. But no, passers by never say anything.

Perhaps the perspective that people living with disability are bleating or entitled comes from people not really understanding the challenges. I fortunately require nothing of anyone. But I read and I chat to people. I would rather help and risk that they don't need it than not help someone who does.

Why are people so obsessed with lifts, i never knew where they were when I was out and about before I had kids unless they was no alternative. Most lifts in shops are actually out of the way. Often you have to go find them, they are not always obvious, usually the escalator is slap bang in the middle, pretty hard to miss.

And it would be unusual for me to have to get out and make way for someone as I wouldn't usually be in the lift in the first place. Does this apply to buses, trains etc, would people not give up their seat to someone who needs it more as they were there first etc.

We need lift men with gold braid again. Reduce unemployment and restore order. win win.

Not lift women cos that would be UNNATURAL

wannaBe again I think you're spot on.

The friend I referred to earlier, wouldn't expect people to be rude to her (and you'd get pretty short shrift if you tried shouting abuse at her/her son in the street!) but she would hate to be patronised or think that people felt sorry for her or her son.

I have almost rammed people with my buggy, definitely been a bit aggressive with it when people had tried to skip past me into a lift when I had been there first. If it was up to some of them I would have waited forever.

Honestly - I am able bodied but can't use escalators, I'm phobic of them really - but it's mostly due to my dyspraxia i think - to me it looks and feels as if i'm falling if i'm on one.

so, for me its stairs or lifts - makes travelling in london a nightmare.

Although I probably would still give priority to a wheelchair user (especially if there were stairs i could use).

And I did think that most folk were reasonable bout this kind of thing till I read this thread. Hoping some folk are just bored and on the wind up, hoping...

Perhaps then Pag, there needs to be more awareness/education in schools. I think in a lot of cases people aren't necessarily aware of all of the issues and extra challenges, I think you're right on that.

Don't know what the solution is though.

Motherpanda, but then your need is greater then mine and that's why I'm happy to leave the lift to folk like you.

Someone tell me to go and clean my loo!

Go and clean your loo!

I need to wash up and I've left a right mess in the bedroom I started tidying earlier!

If I offer help and someone tells me to fuck off I think 'blimey, rude' and get on with my day.
I don't apply that one rejection to my every subsequent encounter.

And I have rarely if ever been admonished for being polite.

I have never admonished anyone for attempting to assist my son. And he never needs it. If people feel sorry for me or my son I just assume they don't know us very well so why do I care? I just figure they are trying to be helpful.

I am sure shouty rejection of help happen. But in the same way Folk has never seen anyone abusing disabled people, I have never seen an arsey refusal

Sorry, sozzled - thanks for acknowledging my need - many wouldn't! The point is that a wheelchair user, for example, looking at me in a lift would assume that i was busy a lazy entitled so and so - just a point to people to always to be aware of hidden disabilities in these cases - not to assume that you need spomething more than someone else etc.

sorry, i meant to say a wheelchair user could see me that way not would!

fair enough Folk.
Although I still think manners mostly covers it. Old person, person in wheelchair, person with uber huge parcel, person with buggy - you use the lift, I'll get on the escalator or walk the last bit.